http://forums.asp.net/t/253648.aspx/1?Credentials+and+Job+HuntingMon, 29 Sep 2003 05:17:34 -0400253648253648http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/253648.aspx/1?Credentials+and+Job+Hunting What is important when you are looking for a job? Credentials? I mean, if you get the MCSD or MCAD.NET, would you be in an advantageous positions? Anybody can give me the answer? 2003-06-20T15:42:40-04:00253692http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/253692.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting In my opinion actual hands on experience is the best. Anyone can get certified,b ut if you get a cert and have experience also thats a big plus. I currently have 10 years IT experience with no certs and know more then some people i worked with that are certified. At my current job our 'tech lead" has MCSD and can't write line of code to save her life, all she as is books smarts but now working experience or knowledge. just my 2 cents 2003-06-20T16:10:25-04:00254112http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/254112.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting I second that. Whenever I've been in a position of evaluating candidates I look for (in this order): 1. Work Experience 2. Evidence they take their career seriously (i.e. Dedication to furthering their skills, etc). 3. Communication skills 4. School (i.e. BS in Comp Sci , etc) 5. Certs The certs aren't a showstopper. But it can be a nice tiebreaker. I'm also more impressed to see someone have a newer cert, because the older ones have been braindumped to death and anyone could get one. Note that someone obtaining certs helps to satisfy criteria number 2 above. 2003-06-20T22:03:36-04:00255320http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/255320.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting Certifications - In my case, I dont believe in certifications because based in my experience, anyone without any experience at all can get certified by just reading lots of books (I dont know if you agree). Work Experience - It DEPENDS. An applicant with 3 yrs experience can be more skilled than those with 5 yrs experience. Summary - Its not always the work experience, school, certification, etc. but ON HOW ONE WORKS. Not all developers are good or bad either but its on how he works that make him stays on top. 2003-06-23T02:53:22-04:00255367http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/255367.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting - Its not always the work experience, school, certification, etc. but ON HOW ONE WORKS. Not all developers are good or bad either but its on how he works that make him stays on top. ==================== What are some qualities you look for in ones work habits? 2003-06-23T04:37:03-04:00256568http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/256568.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting honesty, determination, efficiency... 2003-06-24T00:16:40-04:00256879http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/256879.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting ::Certifications VERY useful. Unless a developer is extraordinary and exposed, I value certs pretty high. They tell me he has atl east the book knowledge about a toopic. You wont beliee how many database develoeprs are out there that have never read the SQL syntax. A certification shows me he has at least this level. ::Work Experience Smaller 5 years? Make this a junior position, please. Smaller two years? Trainee, even from university. 95% of the developers out there are purely incompettent, I dont need any of these on my team. 2003-06-24T08:34:02-04:00265056http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/265056.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting "I currently have 10 years IT experience with no certs and know more then some people i worked with that are certified. At my current job our 'tech lead" has MCSD and can't write line of code to save her life, all she as is books smarts but now working experience or knowledge." I find that amusing. That is a great example of why, no matter what you think is important, certifications are very important. She's the tech lead, not you. Guess who makes more money and the job still gets done because you did it, even if you had to do it for her. 2003-07-01T19:07:07-04:00265936http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/265936.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting Certifications are the managers way of understanding job skills they don't understand. Most certifications are useless from a knowledge standpoint, but since most IT managers have no clue what they are looking for in an employee, they look for certifications. I have a colleague, 25 years experience and several MS certificates, who thinks certifications are just a money making business for MS :) . Good if you are in-experienced and trying to get into the job market, useless otherwise. Most certificates don't address common sense, they just drill a large number of facts about a particular product in to your head. Most of the time it doesn't include what you actually need to get the job done. I value the certificates that actually require you to build something or solve real world problems before you get them, somewhat higher (like for instance a security certificate that actually requires you to hack a hardened system succesfully before you get it :) ). 2003-07-02T16:08:21-04:00266438http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/266438.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting Amen to that! :P Well for me, I think its one of the marketing strategies of MS. :P 2003-07-02T23:21:57-04:00276823http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/276823.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting Hands on experience is definately the most important thing. However, the Microsoft certifications do give you a distinct advantage. About 2 weeks after I earned my MCDBA I was offered, and accepted, a job with a multi-national company. Along with the job came a pay raise of $15,000 per year. My new company has offered to help me get my MCAD certification (they will pay for everything. boot camp, testing, materials...). The best part of this whole deal is another pay increase after I earn my MCAD. Obvisouly, I am all for certifications. 2003-07-14T12:01:23-04:00277237http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/277237.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting LOL, just found out pay increase doesn't help that much. Had the chance to earn more than $20.000 more, but: - pay 200% more in day care - pay 150%-200% more for housing - my wife would make about 5% less - constant over time (up to 36 hours straight, can you believe that? Their project management must be totally incompetent), at the unbelievably bad rate of $21 per over work hour (don't ask, a funny construction with base rate and additional pay for billable hours). Someone who is more desperate can have that one :) 2003-07-14T18:05:15-04:00344646http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/344646.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting hi all, ok certifications do count... but what if a person doesn't have a college degree, but has certifications, and allot of experience in his area ? (web development in this case) how would you evaluate the persons status in the business ? 2003-09-22T13:58:31-04:00348736http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/348736.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting Hey. If you want to become a manager or ceo of a fortune 100 company then get a degree. On the other hand, if you are contented with just freelance programming then certification is ok but take note that when you apply to top companies, then its better if you have both...for competition sake. 2003-09-26T00:30:57-04:00348800http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/348800.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting So what about someone like me who just got out of college with a CompSci degree, but minimal professional experience. I'm finding it tough to find a job. Would certification be a good idea for me or not. 2003-09-26T02:41:29-04:00348805http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/348805.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting Certification is a mixed bag. I've found it useful for systems engineers but not for developers. That said, for the first time in my 20+ years of software development someone asked if I was an MCSD, and meant it. I took the tests over a three week period and got it, and got the contract. Am I more qualified for the contract? No. But it was a requirement and I did it. If you're new out of school, there are some people who will be impressed that you're certified, and that may make enough of a difference to get you a job. Don 2003-09-26T02:53:38-04:00348947http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/348947.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting I know what you mean, and I've thought that the situatuon is like that, altho I am currently employed in a company that develops web solutions (web applications), I was planning to go out, and get a job outside my country (bigger salary, better living...), but my biggest issue is that Iam afraid that I wouldn't survive without a college degree (not to mention that I would like to go higher and achive something in my professional career) and I know what the comment will be on this message: Get a degree !!!!! but the problem is that I just don't have the time currently, Iam working here 9-17 regulary, everyday I stay atleast two hours after work learning new stuff, and getting with the flow, when I get home who's gonna study ? tommorow is again a work day... 2003-09-26T07:00:43-04:00350631http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/350631.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting So my whole piece with the certifications is that you shouldn't need to study more than some quick review of less common topics. Just because you can fill in the right bubble because you read the book doesn't mean you can actually apply the knowledge. If you know the stuff, you should be able to take the exams and pass them. Like Don, I went and got them solely because some places look for such a thing - I'm not a better admin than I was before I went and took MCSE tests. 2003-09-28T16:58:55-04:00350703http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/350703.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting I think that certifications are excellent, especially for guys who are new to commercial programming (and by that, I mean anyone with less than two years in a job where code cutting and development is what you actually get paid for). Here's why: 1. You can often get your employer to help fund them, even if all they do is buy you books and pay for the exams. 2. The vendor (whether it is Microsoft or another) normally has a good idea of what is important in their technology, and they test it. This forces you to learn it. 3. Most developers don't get enough breadth in their development. I've met too many programmers with three or four years experience who have been doing precisely the same thing for those three or four years. What this actually means is that they have one years experience repeated three or four times. Doing certs will broaden your exposure to the technology. 4. You normally get benefits, such as reduced prices on bits and pieces. 5. It's a hard world out there - why wouldn't you want any advantage that you can get. 6. Some employers do recognise the extra commitment that gaining certs requires. They will pay more/offer you the job. Are they as valuable as a degree. Almost certainly not. But the last time I was recruiting development staff, one of the candidates (with a BSc in Computer Science) wrote on his coding test that he couldn't write a 'C' function because he had been taught C++ at college. And as a recruiter. that should let you know what I think the real value of a comp sci degree is these days! 2003-09-28T19:34:05-04:00350921http://forums.asp.net/p/253648/350921.aspx/1?Re+Credentials+and+Job+Hunting >2. The vendor (whether it is Microsoft or another) normally has a good idea of what is >important in their technology, and they test it. This forces you to learn it. I didn't feel that way at all when I did the Win 2003 MCSE track tests. The tests were focused on non-realworld stuff like RRAS. 2003-09-29T05:17:34-04:00