>This "slap on the hand" makes users feel stupid and insults them as it challenges their decision to delete something. Are you sure? If I wasn't, I wouldn't have clicked the button.
My apologies - I wasn't saying the popup was intended as a slap-on-the-hand to the
user, I was saying that my decision to include a pop-up (or any other interface characteristic that might not be deemed "proper") might get me a slap on the wrist from the UI people, but it might make my
users happier.
Beyond that, though, we all know that users accidentally hit buttons they shouldn't, so it is not empirical that clicking the button is evidence of operational certainty on the part of the user. It has been our experience that
when something of broad substance is going to get deleted, and we show prototypes of those apps to the prospective user base, they want a confirmation dialog even if we haven't already put one in.
>[My users absolutely love it (an ugly old interface)] >
That's not totally truthful..
No disrespect, but I predict I know my user base a bit better. You don't see how they defend it.. [:(]
might get me a slap on the wrist from the UI people, but it might make my
users happier.
Beyond that, though, we all know that users accidentally hit buttons they shouldn't, so it is not empirical that clicking the button is evidence of operational certainty on the part of the user. It has been our experience that
when something of broad substance is going to get deleted, and we show prototypes of those apps to the prospective user base, they want a confirmation dialog even if we haven't already put one in.
Those who like it only do because they haven't been provided with better options. I was once in the popup dialog box class myself from a user standpoint, but once I was provided with a better way of doing things, I was eager
to accept the change.
soonerdave
>[My users absolutely love it (an ugly old interface)] > That's not totally truthful..
No disrespect, but I predict I know my user base a bit better. You don't see how they defend it.. [:(]
No disrespect taken. [:)] Originally, it said
the users, so it appeared as if it was a statement about a specific group of users in general.
This discussion is all very well, and it does introduce a very good concept in the maintenance, use and handling of deleted data which is to be commended, however it would seem to me that the main point is to prevent the deletion of data unnecessarily in
the first instance.
In a world where most users (I would think) expect to be prompted before an action, developing a system which does not conform to what may be considered accepted norms may cause disorientation in the user group. Yet on the other hand, if the facility exists
to cause a delete then the question has to be what do you do once that deletion has taken place?
(I must say I like StrongTypes' approach which appears to be superior to mine where deleted items are moved to a deleted table and time stamped. A cleanup routine consisting of a stored procedure is run daily and if the time stamp exceeds a predefined period
the record(s) are deleted from the deleted table never to return.)
With all this in mind whilst I aggree with the underlying premise of StrongTypes approach, namely that deleted data has to be handled intelligently to allow restores when needed, I cannot however agree that one should dispense with confirmation boxes as
they provide a very useful prompt which can prevent necessary actions across a network, and surely such a reduction in necessary actions is a desireable attribute of a well designed system?
Do you like it when Microsoft Word asks you
Do you want to save? after you've been working on a document for a couple of hours? Of course not. The fundamental issue at bat here is the over abuse of dialog popups, even though it's swayed towards the direction of delete confirmations. Software should
be more intelligent.
Yet on the other hand, if the facility exists to cause a delete then the question has to be what do you do once that deletion has taken place?
Provide visual feedback. Like when your profile has been updated on this site. If your next questions are: But isn't that redundant? Don't you think they know they deleted it? The answer to that is to provide visual feedback
confirming the delete because there is no way for them to know an error didn't occur preventing it from being deleted. Another important thing is that the errors should be hidden from them and that visual message should inform them that an error occured while
deleting it in that case. But that's OT of this thread, so I'll end it at that.
SattaMassaGana
I cannot however agree that one should dispense with confirmation boxes as they provide a very useful prompt which can prevent necessary actions across a network, and surely such a reduction in necessary actions is a desireable attribute of a well designed
system?
The key to all of this is, as Alan Cooper so well conveys it in
About Face 2.0, the eject button. The recycle bin is the eject button. In the event that somebody messes up, there is the recycle bin to undo that. If you don't have a recycle bin, then you're in a different arena as there is no eject button. And yes,
we can adapt to change. For some, it takes longer than others, and there are those that are stubborn. But, we only accept what we have been shown as being the best and won't change unless we are shown other alternatives.
First off, apologies for a couple typos, my post should have read: (...which can prevent
unnecessary actions across... ... and surely such a reduction in unnecessary actions is ...) I hope the main thrust of the post was not lost.
I take on board your point about the provision of visual feedback, I would even go further and argue that such a provision is crucial in maintaining the trust and confidence of the user in the system/app by informing them of attempted actions on the underlying
data and the resultant state of the d/b.
I also like your approach to the management of deleted data items, though I'm not convinced about making confirmation boxes redundant just yet. What I think I need to do is to explore your point further by having a look at About Face. Thanks for your reasoned
argument.
That is exactly what I have been doing from the start, and when you work for people and they are your client, clients always want a way do "undo" something. If you don't, chances are sooner or later they will ask for it. Have rows flagged as deleted, then
have a SQL Command run weekly or bi-daily that cleans out the deleted items, giving the client's users the option of restoring information within a timeframe. This is especally useful for complex things that require a lot of input. Chances are when a user
wanted to delete something, they really wanted to delete it, so they won't really make that mistake. However the restoration is useful when the user thinks, "wait I shouldn't have deleted it", not "oops I didn't mean to delete it", which a popup doesn't solve
either. A recycle bin is always a better choice if it can be implemented because it takes care of two problems: Accidental deletion and wanting to restore it because they changed their mind.
A recycle bin is always a better choice if it can be implemented because it takes care of two problems: Accidental deletion and wanting to restore it because they changed their mind.
Totally agree...
I always implement "recycle bin" in the database. It's worth the extra work. You can have 100 confirmation dialog one after the other (are you sure to delete...?), some user will click 100 times the OK, and after then saying "I didn't want to do this, what's
now?" [:)]
soonerdave
Member
58 Points
26 Posts
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 03, 2006 03:30 PM|LINK
Hi, Ryan...
>This "slap on the hand" makes users feel stupid and insults them as it challenges their decision to delete something. Are you sure? If I wasn't, I wouldn't have clicked the button.
My apologies - I wasn't saying the popup was intended as a slap-on-the-hand to the user, I was saying that my decision to include a pop-up (or any other interface characteristic that might not be deemed "proper") might get me a slap on the wrist from the UI people, but it might make my users happier.
Beyond that, though, we all know that users accidentally hit buttons they shouldn't, so it is not empirical that clicking the button is evidence of operational certainty on the part of the user. It has been our experience that when something of broad substance is going to get deleted, and we show prototypes of those apps to the prospective user base, they want a confirmation dialog even if we haven't already put one in.
>[My users absolutely love it (an ugly old interface)] > That's not totally truthful..
No disrespect, but I predict I know my user base a bit better. You don't see how they defend it.. [:(]
-soonerdave
StrongTypes
All-Star
30801 Points
6013 Posts
ASPInsiders
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 03, 2006 03:46 PM|LINK
Beyond that, though, we all know that users accidentally hit buttons they shouldn't, so it is not empirical that clicking the button is evidence of operational certainty on the part of the user. It has been our experience that when something of broad substance is going to get deleted, and we show prototypes of those apps to the prospective user base, they want a confirmation dialog even if we haven't already put one in.
Those who like it only do because they haven't been provided with better options. I was once in the popup dialog box class myself from a user standpoint, but once I was provided with a better way of doing things, I was eager to accept the change.
No disrespect taken. [:)] Originally, it said the users, so it appeared as if it was a statement about a specific group of users in general.
SattaMassaGa...
Member
203 Points
44 Posts
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 13, 2006 08:19 AM|LINK
This discussion is all very well, and it does introduce a very good concept in the maintenance, use and handling of deleted data which is to be commended, however it would seem to me that the main point is to prevent the deletion of data unnecessarily in the first instance.
In a world where most users (I would think) expect to be prompted before an action, developing a system which does not conform to what may be considered accepted norms may cause disorientation in the user group. Yet on the other hand, if the facility exists to cause a delete then the question has to be what do you do once that deletion has taken place?
(I must say I like StrongTypes' approach which appears to be superior to mine where deleted items are moved to a deleted table and time stamped. A cleanup routine consisting of a stored procedure is run daily and if the time stamp exceeds a predefined period the record(s) are deleted from the deleted table never to return.)
With all this in mind whilst I aggree with the underlying premise of StrongTypes approach, namely that deleted data has to be handled intelligently to allow restores when needed, I cannot however agree that one should dispense with confirmation boxes as they provide a very useful prompt which can prevent necessary actions across a network, and surely such a reduction in necessary actions is a desireable attribute of a well designed system?
dnboy
Member
18 Points
4 Posts
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 14, 2006 04:02 AM|LINK
It is just a javascript
StrongTypes
All-Star
30801 Points
6013 Posts
ASPInsiders
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 14, 2006 04:06 AM|LINK
Do you like it when Microsoft Word asks you Do you want to save? after you've been working on a document for a couple of hours? Of course not. The fundamental issue at bat here is the over abuse of dialog popups, even though it's swayed towards the direction of delete confirmations. Software should be more intelligent.
StrongTypes
All-Star
30801 Points
6013 Posts
ASPInsiders
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 14, 2006 04:16 AM|LINK
Provide visual feedback. Like when your profile has been updated on this site. If your next questions are: But isn't that redundant? Don't you think they know they deleted it? The answer to that is to provide visual feedback confirming the delete because there is no way for them to know an error didn't occur preventing it from being deleted. Another important thing is that the errors should be hidden from them and that visual message should inform them that an error occured while deleting it in that case. But that's OT of this thread, so I'll end it at that.
The key to all of this is, as Alan Cooper so well conveys it in About Face 2.0, the eject button. The recycle bin is the eject button. In the event that somebody messes up, there is the recycle bin to undo that. If you don't have a recycle bin, then you're in a different arena as there is no eject button. And yes, we can adapt to change. For some, it takes longer than others, and there are those that are stubborn. But, we only accept what we have been shown as being the best and won't change unless we are shown other alternatives.
SattaMassaGa...
Member
203 Points
44 Posts
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 14, 2006 11:54 AM|LINK
First off, apologies for a couple typos, my post should have read: (...which can prevent unnecessary actions across... ... and surely such a reduction in unnecessary actions is ...) I hope the main thrust of the post was not lost.
I take on board your point about the provision of visual feedback, I would even go further and argue that such a provision is crucial in maintaining the trust and confidence of the user in the system/app by informing them of attempted actions on the underlying data and the resultant state of the d/b.
I also like your approach to the management of deleted data items, though I'm not convinced about making confirmation boxes redundant just yet. What I think I need to do is to explore your point further by having a look at About Face. Thanks for your reasoned argument.
deokule2003
Participant
1786 Points
356 Posts
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Mar 15, 2006 05:15 PM|LINK
Also whenever you want to generate reports, queries; you've to mention this condition in WHERE clause.
User should have facility to purge documents from recyclebin table.
Regards
Kuldeep Deokule
Blog: http://dkuldeep.blogspot.com
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
vcsjones
All-Star
34842 Points
4424 Posts
Moderator
MVP
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
May 22, 2006 09:29 PM|LINK
That is exactly what I have been doing from the start, and when you work for people and they are your client, clients always want a way do "undo" something. If you don't, chances are sooner or later they will ask for it. Have rows flagged as deleted, then have a SQL Command run weekly or bi-daily that cleans out the deleted items, giving the client's users the option of restoring information within a timeframe. This is especally useful for complex things that require a lot of input. Chances are when a user wanted to delete something, they really wanted to delete it, so they won't really make that mistake. However the restoration is useful when the user thinks, "wait I shouldn't have deleted it", not "oops I didn't mean to delete it", which a popup doesn't solve either. A recycle bin is always a better choice if it can be implemented because it takes care of two problems: Accidental deletion and wanting to restore it because they changed their mind.
stmarti
Contributor
4963 Points
1036 Posts
Re: Adding an Alert box to a button without javascript
Jul 25, 2006 10:19 AM|LINK
Totally agree...
I always implement "recycle bin" in the database. It's worth the extra work. You can have 100 confirmation dialog one after the other (are you sure to delete...?), some user will click 100 times the OK, and after then saying "I didn't want to do this, what's now?" [:)]