Hello, Ghan, I feel the ORM is the way to go. On some important spot need optimize, we'll use SP. I never paid attention to OR Mappers before, but recently, after I sit down, and read some white paper of the ORM tools available in Java World, I am suprised
that so much wonderful jobs have been done. I can imagine how much time I will save if I have one of them available. The only thing I am worrying about is: ObjectSpaces. Get used to a O/R tool, and work with its principal/programming model is a big change
in the way you construct your application. I am just afraid that after Objectspaces is out, and MS pushes it so hard, and everybody are trying to use Objectspaces, so all the time I invest in learning a O/R tool is kindof a waste. Unfortunately, there's no
detail information available about Objectspaces, maybe Thona can tell us some. 1. Can it handle Inheritance? 2. Is it really based on DataSet? (I think this might be a very stupid decision). I can see it handles single table mapping pretty well, kindof like
Thona's EntityBroker, but not sure its inheritance ability. If you have time, read white papers of Hibernate and Ojb, you will be suprised. By the way, I just concluded to myself, and the battle between Dynamic SQL and SP is a religious battle, they have to
work together to make things work the best. Dynamic SQL is hard to maintain, that's true, but guess what? With a O/R mapper, you don't have to maintain it, and from my understanding it's even more stable than SP! The performance difference can be ignored,
we have much more worse things to worry about. And it really doesn't make sense to write a SP to get a row of a table by Primary key. MSDAAB is just a piece of simple code, it's a start, but it's too simple to be used in a production application, you have
to craft it a lot. Calvin
Hi, cklein, Good to hear some reasons to try O/R mappers. Get used to a O/R tool, and work with its principal/programming model is a big change in the way you construct your application.
This is the point. I am just afraid that after Objectspaces is out, and MS pushes it so hard, and everybody are trying to use Objectspaces, so all the time I invest in learning a O/R tool is kindof a waste.
This is the major concern I have. the battle between Dynamic SQL and SP is a religious battle, they have to work together to make things work the best.
It is not just a performance issue, it is mainly a programming style issue, and not just for yourself, but your team, the DBA you work with and your colleagues and boss.
MSDAAB is just a piece of simple code, it's a start, but it's too simple to be used in a production application, you have to craft it a lot.
Why you say that? Which part it doesn't satisfy your needs? I like simple code and hate the complex one except it is a 'has to'.
MCAD.NET (C#)
MCP on: SQL Server 2k Design&Iimplementation, Web Development (VI 6.0) and VB 5.0
If you want to toy some look here at the newly released LLBLGen Pro http://www.llblgen.com/DefaultGeneric.aspx You can download the demo and play with Northwind. I have been using LLBLGen 1.0 which uses SP's and a couple other DAL generators using SP's that
are all great time savers. The new LLBGenPro makes use of all the SP's I have already built along with Dynamic SQL. So I actually can go either way. Because of my past good experience with LLBLGen 1.0 I jumped on the Pro O/R version when released. I have been
toying with it for some hours now.
Thanks for the info. I have made a glance on it. It seems it different from LLBLGen 1.0. LLBLGen 1.0 generate both code and SP, which was what I like, while the new pro seems only to generate code according to the existing SP. Am I right?
MCAD.NET (C#)
MCP on: SQL Server 2k Design&Iimplementation, Web Development (VI 6.0) and VB 5.0
Yes, ghan the Pro version does not generate SP's but does indeed generate wrappers for existing SP's. Do take a look at the demo provided and work with the Northwind example. I think you will like what you see. If you indeed want to generate SP's you could
first do that with another tool or build the ones you need on your own. After you have them the way you want then run the O/R Mapping tool. I also understand there will be another demo posted in the near future. I am not sure if it is only for customers or
not though. If you stilll want to use SP's though you certainly can do so where needed. Regards, Kim (Kman)
Thanks, kman. I thought generating SP was an advantage of LLBLGen. The lack was just it didn't create some complex revieval SPs in version 1.0. For action SPs, it handled them based on table, that should be enough. I don't know why it even doesn't include the
SP generation in its pro. At this point, it lost the advantage, say, compared with DAAB, I think.
MCAD.NET (C#)
MCP on: SQL Server 2k Design&Iimplementation, Web Development (VI 6.0) and VB 5.0
::If you want to toy some look here at the newly released LLBLGen Pro ::http://www.llblgen.com/DefaultGeneric.aspx I am going to quote here, from a customer of our's. I pointed him to the llbgen pro website and asked for his impression: ::Thomas, I don't think
you need to worry about those guys. They are one of the toys. He was pretty right, IMHO. LLBGEN pro is a fast step forward. Calling it the next gen O/R mapping is like saying that a 40 year old car is "the next generation in cars". It lacks a TON of features
that make a O/R mapper "real" from the OO side. What id does is handle the db side pretty good. Lets go into some points. Ghan, you are first: ::while the new pro seems only to generate code according to the existing SP. Am I right? You are. After a lot of
looks into reality Frans found out that the performanse difference is just not worth it. There is a gain, but it is minimal - and running dynamic queries is a pain if your logixc is in a SP, so he has change d this. Smart move. What he did not do is making
LLBEN pro anything like a full featured O/R mapper. No component model, no inheritance, nothing that is REALLY interesting, besides a pretty simple table to object mapper. While sufficient for a lot of scenarios, it has it's (severe) limitations if you want
to use things like inheritance. Definitve a good step forward for all people that liked LLBGEN, but hardly the next step ion O/R mapping. Sad Frans got so fed up with his marketing talk.
Without generating SPs is a loss of LLBLGen. For some people, for example, myself, they are not ready to switch to a so called ORM, but the feature to create SP might make them as a user or potential user of the product. For a product to be successful, the
promotion method is important, too. I like the way of LLBLGen version 1.0 for users to easily download and test the product and have a general idea about the product. The new LLBLGen pro demo is not good. After I download it, and run it, I cannot catch the
features it has as a whole picture. I have to think and ask. You know for some user they are just looking around, they don't have patience to spend more than 10-20 minutes to evaluate a product or to read the doc. Unfortunately, I have not downloaded thona's
product although I tried more than twice on that web in the past. It seems it is not an easy way for user to download and test it.
MCAD.NET (C#)
MCP on: SQL Server 2k Design&Iimplementation, Web Development (VI 6.0) and VB 5.0
Hello, Ghan, Generating SP is really easy. You can do it yourself or use other tools. CodeSmith has some templates to do this. LLBGEN is NOT a O/R mapping tool. It will help you with your traditional programming model, which I won't go. Create some some code
generators, you probably get everything you need. BUT IT DOES HELP! to an extent. The inheritance of tables is really important, I can imagine how much effort it can save for me, and how it can change my ideas of implementation. Because it's so easy to implement
inheritance with a O/R mapping tool, you probably tend to normalize your data deeper. Now I don't have a good O/R mapping tool in handle, usually I design my DB by shying away from inheritance. Because I have to maintain that relationship manually, write too
many SP/CODE, which is a pain even when it's auto-generated. I am still investigating some O/R mapping tools. I don't have any new project now, but I want to get pretty familiar with O/R mapping tool, so It can take me minimum time to develop a website and
sell it for $2500. :-) I am not against Code Generators, actually I think they are great, and always necessary for O/R mappers, even after we get generics. I did a lot of work on CodeGenerators also. O/R mapper + Code Generator will revolutionalize our way
to program. :-) Calvin
Download, ask for a trial license, test :-) That simple. Works a lot of times per day. Though the process is a little distributed - we are working on a new website :-) 2003.1 is also coming soon (and will have the new site).
cklein
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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ghan
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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Kman
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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ghan
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Kman
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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ghan
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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thona
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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ghan
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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cklein
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Re: O/R Mapping Tools for .NET
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