Aren't there enough serious issues in MVC that Microsoft people should be paying attention to? Like, the one I published, about JsMinify issue in MVC4? And yet, my post gets 0 replies, but a rude and pointless rant gets all the attention, whereas it should
have been just deleted.
Hate to point out at the need of doing your job, guys...
like, the one I published, about JsMinify issue in MVC4?
I think that they pay attention. However, you must understand that they have other priorities too.
VitalyT
my post gets 0 replies,
I do not know MVC4 beta. Nor I have the time to install it. However, once MVC4 final, there will be more answers from me - because I plan passing my pet project (www.infovalutar.ro) from MVC2 to MVC4.
VitalyT
a rude and pointless rant gets all the attention, whereas it should have been just deleted.
I think that every one have right to an opinion. Maybe others moderators will just delete the post. I am on the opinion of confronting ideas.
More, I think that you are thinking here at a "win all times " situation:
1. if we delete the post, you are telling that " what, the post was deleted because they have no arguments"
2. if we do not delete the post, you are reacting like in this post ;-) .
VitalyT
Hate to point out at the need of doing your job, guys
It's not my job. I do not take any money . I am not a Microsoft employee. I just like teaching.
Unfortunately i just don't see tier separation with MVC but to me it comes down to all in one confusing layout. Model -> View -> Controller wording doesn't even make sense from logical and business point of view. It is interesting that one of the reasons
for MVC is full control over HTML and clean HTML output. In Web Application you don't have to use ASP controls and everything can be done using html controls or you can write your own library to render output, i have done it and there are no benefits of it.
I don't see ASP generating any bad html and it is quite useful since puts ID on every html tag which is must have thing if you are going to add javascript. If you don't like given ASP controls you can write your own. Also i think people are mistaken saying
there are no events in MVC. MVC just like Web Forms is event driven too otherwise click of the button would never trigger anything. It is wrapped out differently so it is no obvious to a program like it is with Web Forms.
Afterall what @html.ActiveLink example even means, just another way to make thing unecessary complicated? Doesn't make it any better than <asp:LinkButton
In a large project where you have 50+ views and so many Controller and Models files, good luck finding anything, at least what i saw from examples. The problem is that there is no design mode and basically no way by clicking on button for example to automatically
take you to appropriate function behind it. I am not saying i am an expert in MVC but larger projects seems to get spaghetti code.
As I said it is like PHP meets .NET and good luck working in a mess of code called PHP. Writing inline for loop within table tags to render output is just beyond reasonable. We had that in ASP classic and the whole purpose of Web Forms was to speed development
up and get away from that old way. Too much of sacrifice to get some 'clean' html so people who are not programmer can understand output. Relying on browser to do most of the job is a bit scary idea, just saying.
Speaking of load testing, i have done load testing of MVC 2 applications using HP Load Runner and performance was crap. Didn't have single MVC2 performing well, afterall people are mistaken if they think MVC makes any less number calls to Server than Web
Form Application. Again, not sure what was reasoning behind slow performance because i never saw or wrote a code.
okay, you do not appear to appreciate ASP.NET MVC as a paradigm ...
each to her/his own taste
i'm 65 .. when i first saw pizza, around age 12 to 14, it looked like
vomit; until i was in my late teens or early twenties, i never had the courage to try pizza ... since my first bite, pizza has been one of my favourite foods.
lradunovic, it's as if ASP.NET MVC is to you as pizza once was to me.
if the "Guinness Book of World Records" gave a citation for quoting a link the most times, i might win it for this Rob Conery link:
Phil Haack led the team that brought us ASP.NET MVC, Jeff Atwood created
http://stackoverflow.com/ as one of the first major ASP.NET MVC websites, Rob Conery is responsible for the ORM SubSonic (http://subsonicproject.com/) and is a co-author of "Professional ASP.NET
MVC 2".
"WebForms is a lie. It’s abstraction wrapped in deception covered in lie sauce presented on a plate full of diversion and sleight of hand.
Nothing you do with Webforms has anything to do with the web – you let it do the work for you.
This, friends, is a big deal (at least to me): You’re working in a lie.
The web is *not* stateful and works with this stuff called HTML sent across wires using another thing called HTTP – you need to know this, love this, and feel it at the bone level."
also, op. cit.:
7 Reasons To Stop Calling [Rob Conery] A Jerk
1 – Testability 2 – Control over HTML 3 – Extensibility 4 – It Makes You Think… 5 – …Differently: Javascript Doesn’t Suck 6 – Learning New Concepts 7 – It’s Fun
imho, Rob Conery's # 1 reason is the most important by far.
Note: Rob Conery is no longer with Microsoft, FWIW.
op. cit.: "... I’m biased and, more importantly, I actually still have my very own brain which forms its own thoughts! I love MVC and I think you will too – just please,
please try it before you form an opinion."
Speaking personally, ASP.NET MVC just makes sense ... ASP.NET MVC is freedom; WebForms is just a form of imprisonment, imho.
g.
B-) Please help me by completing my school survey about computer programmers on my website. Thank you!!! Gerry Lowry +1 705-429-7550 wasaga beach, ontario, canada
This is a fourm to ask solutions for problems related with ASP.net ans everthing related to it. But this fourm is not for complain and throwring out the frustration. But still if you want to do that then I can suggest you fw good names like (Scott
Gu, Scott Hanselman, etc).. you can find their website easily on the web and contact then directly they wil help you to choose a better path and let this fourm be for problem solver....
lradunovic:
Dude you have to first find what are thr pitfall of Asp.net, and then you have to find out advantages of Asp.net MVC over Asp.net. First try to understand MVC what it is meant for then "SUCK" it.
let me put it this way: it took MS years to do it right!
i don't know any other web technology using weird concepts like full postbacks, server side controls,... because they just doesn't fit the way web applications work.
I agree with you I felt the same when I started development in mvc.
Before starting mvc, I worked on asp.net n-tier and layer architectures, I felt this is always the best. But when I was forced to work on mvc, I did not like it, I missed all the event handling, postbacks and all the interesting stuff.
After that I worked on mvc for 8 months and now Im back to asp.net development, but I feel that asp.net is not as free (not flexible) as mvc used to be. Now when Im developing in asp.net, I can see the limitations, which are not there in mvc.
Mvc works well when used for ajax with jquery. The deeper you go the more you'll like it.
You don't have to use full post back with Web Forms, you don't have to use view state and JQuery and Javascript just works perfect there. I never found any limitation with Web Forms therefore a lot of people are not even aware of what is all capable of.
As I said you don't have to even use ASP controls therefore you have full control over html and saying that you do not is bullshit.
I am not saying that MVC is bad but it is different.
B-) Please help me by completing my school survey about computer programmers on my website. Thank you!!! Gerry Lowry +1 705-429-7550 wasaga beach, ontario, canada
Hate to point out at the need of doing your job, guys...
FYI - Everyone that has commented on this thread so far is a community contributer. The Microsoft folks are probably pretty busy working on MVC4 and while they do contribute to this forum from time to time, a large number of questions are answered by community
memebers volunteering their time.
I'm sorry no one answered your question, but it is the type of issue that community members can't fix for you. If you want to report a bug fix, that's great but this isn't the place to do it. You should go to the ASP.NET Issue tracker on codeplex. http://aspnet.codeplex.com/
VitalyT
Member
2 Points
16 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 19, 2012 05:11 PM|LINK
Aren't there enough serious issues in MVC that Microsoft people should be paying attention to? Like, the one I published, about JsMinify issue in MVC4? And yet, my post gets 0 replies, but a rude and pointless rant gets all the attention, whereas it should have been just deleted.
Hate to point out at the need of doing your job, guys...
ignatandrei
All-Star
137698 Points
22155 Posts
Moderator
MVP
Re: MVC sucks
May 20, 2012 07:02 AM|LINK
I think that they pay attention. However, you must understand that they have other priorities too.
I do not know MVC4 beta. Nor I have the time to install it. However, once MVC4 final, there will be more answers from me - because I plan passing my pet project (www.infovalutar.ro) from MVC2 to MVC4.
I think that every one have right to an opinion. Maybe others moderators will just delete the post. I am on the opinion of confronting ideas.
More, I think that you are thinking here at a "win all times " situation:
1. if we delete the post, you are telling that " what, the post was deleted because they have no arguments"
2. if we do not delete the post, you are reacting like in this post ;-) .
It's not my job. I do not take any money . I am not a Microsoft employee. I just like teaching.
lradunovic
Member
2 Points
6 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 02:06 AM|LINK
Unfortunately i just don't see tier separation with MVC but to me it comes down to all in one confusing layout. Model -> View -> Controller wording doesn't even make sense from logical and business point of view. It is interesting that one of the reasons for MVC is full control over HTML and clean HTML output. In Web Application you don't have to use ASP controls and everything can be done using html controls or you can write your own library to render output, i have done it and there are no benefits of it. I don't see ASP generating any bad html and it is quite useful since puts ID on every html tag which is must have thing if you are going to add javascript. If you don't like given ASP controls you can write your own. Also i think people are mistaken saying there are no events in MVC. MVC just like Web Forms is event driven too otherwise click of the button would never trigger anything. It is wrapped out differently so it is no obvious to a program like it is with Web Forms.
Afterall what @html.ActiveLink example even means, just another way to make thing unecessary complicated? Doesn't make it any better than <asp:LinkButton
In a large project where you have 50+ views and so many Controller and Models files, good luck finding anything, at least what i saw from examples. The problem is that there is no design mode and basically no way by clicking on button for example to automatically take you to appropriate function behind it. I am not saying i am an expert in MVC but larger projects seems to get spaghetti code.
As I said it is like PHP meets .NET and good luck working in a mess of code called PHP. Writing inline for loop within table tags to render output is just beyond reasonable. We had that in ASP classic and the whole purpose of Web Forms was to speed development up and get away from that old way. Too much of sacrifice to get some 'clean' html so people who are not programmer can understand output. Relying on browser to do most of the job is a bit scary idea, just saying.
Speaking of load testing, i have done load testing of MVC 2 applications using HP Load Runner and performance was crap. Didn't have single MVC2 performing well, afterall people are mistaken if they think MVC makes any less number calls to Server than Web Form Application. Again, not sure what was reasoning behind slow performance because i never saw or wrote a code.
gerrylowry
All-Star
20577 Points
5721 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 03:32 AM|LINK
@ lradunovic
okay, you do not appear to appreciate ASP.NET MVC as a paradigm ... each to her/his own taste
i'm 65 .. when i first saw pizza, around age 12 to 14, it looked like vomit; until i was in my late teens or early twenties, i never had the courage to try pizza ... since my first bite, pizza has been one of my favourite foods.
lradunovic, it's as if ASP.NET MVC is to you as pizza once was to me.
if the "Guinness Book of World Records" gave a citation for quoting a link the most times, i might win it for this Rob Conery link:
http://wekeroad.com/2009/04/22/i-spose-ill-just-say-it-you-should-learn-mvc
There are imho a group of programmers' programmers that includes Rob Conery (http://wekeroad.com/), Jeff Atwood (http://www.codinghorror.com), Phil Haack (http://haacked.com/), ...
Phil Haack led the team that brought us ASP.NET MVC, Jeff Atwood created http://stackoverflow.com/ as one of the first major ASP.NET MVC websites, Rob Conery is responsible for the ORM SubSonic (http://subsonicproject.com/) and is a co-author of "Professional ASP.NET MVC 2".
Rob Conery, at http://wekeroad.com/2009/04/22/i-spose-ill-just-say-it-you-should-learn-mvc has this to say:
"WebForms is a lie. It’s abstraction wrapped in deception covered in lie sauce presented on a plate full of diversion and sleight of hand.
Nothing you do with Webforms has anything to do with the web – you let it do the work for you.
This, friends, is a big deal (at least to me): You’re working in a lie.
The web is *not* stateful and works with this stuff called HTML sent across wires using another thing called HTTP – you need to know this, love this, and feel it at the bone level."
also, op. cit.:
7 Reasons To Stop Calling [Rob Conery] A Jerk
1 – Testability
2 – Control over HTML
3 – Extensibility
4 – It Makes You Think…
5 – …Differently: Javascript Doesn’t Suck
6 – Learning New Concepts
7 – It’s Fun
imho, Rob Conery's # 1 reason is the most important by far.
not mentioned by Rob Conery in the above article is the fact that Microsoft has released ASP.NET MVC as open source under the MS-PL licence ... recently, Microsoft has gone one step further in accepting external contributions (http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2012/03/27/asp-net-mvc-web-api-razor-and-open-source.aspx).
lradunovic, imho, it's well worth your time to watch this free essential Pluralsight videos at http://www.asp.net/mvc:
1. Introduction 35 mins
2. Controllers 35 mins
3. Razor Views 45 mins
4. Working with Data: Entity Framework 39 mins
5. Working with Data: Validation and Mapping 45 mins
6. Javascript and Ajax 47 mins
7. Security 43 mins
8. Leveraging the ASP.NET Runtime 34 mins
9. Unit Testing 37 mins
10. Deployment & Configuration 37 mins
Note: Rob Conery is no longer with Microsoft, FWIW.
op. cit.: "... I’m biased and, more importantly, I actually still have my very own brain which forms its own thoughts! I love MVC and I think you will too – just please, please try it before you form an opinion."
Speaking personally, ASP.NET MVC just makes sense ... ASP.NET MVC is freedom; WebForms is just a form of imprisonment, imho.
g.
blurearc
Contributor
3710 Points
692 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 05:22 AM|LINK
Guys,
This is a fourm to ask solutions for problems related with ASP.net ans everthing related to it. But this fourm is not for complain and throwring out the frustration. But still if you want to do that then I can suggest you fw good names like (Scott Gu, Scott Hanselman, etc).. you can find their website easily on the web and contact then directly they wil help you to choose a better path and let this fourm be for problem solver....
lradunovic:
Dude you have to first find what are thr pitfall of Asp.net, and then you have to find out advantages of Asp.net MVC over Asp.net. First try to understand MVC what it is meant for then "SUCK" it.
ignatandrei
You got lot of patience...
"There are NO shortcuts for success, better stop taking one."
Ravi Kant Srivastava
Doctor Sid
Member
156 Points
46 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 08:53 AM|LINK
let me put it this way: it took MS years to do it right!
i don't know any other web technology using weird concepts like full postbacks, server side controls,... because they just doesn't fit the way web applications work.
sriharsha241...
Member
428 Points
111 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 10:07 AM|LINK
I agree with you I felt the same when I started development in mvc.
Before starting mvc, I worked on asp.net n-tier and layer architectures, I felt this is always the best. But when I was forced to work on mvc, I did not like it, I missed all the event handling, postbacks and all the interesting stuff.
After that I worked on mvc for 8 months and now Im back to asp.net development, but I feel that asp.net is not as free (not flexible) as mvc used to be. Now when Im developing in asp.net, I can see the limitations, which are not there in mvc.
Mvc works well when used for ajax with jquery. The deeper you go the more you'll like it.
lradunovic
Member
2 Points
6 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 01:02 PM|LINK
You don't have to use full post back with Web Forms, you don't have to use view state and JQuery and Javascript just works perfect there. I never found any limitation with Web Forms therefore a lot of people are not even aware of what is all capable of. As I said you don't have to even use ASP controls therefore you have full control over html and saying that you do not is bullshit.
I am not saying that MVC is bad but it is different.
gerrylowry
All-Star
20577 Points
5721 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 05:08 PM|LINK
????? then perhaps you might explain why you chose a provactive subject like your "MVC sucks"?
g.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/suck_2:
suck
verb ( BE BAD ) /sʌk/ v Definition
[I] mainly US slang If someone or something sucks, they are bad or unpleasant
Man, this job sucks!
While my brother was sick, I had to do all of his chores and it sucked.
(Definition of suck verb (BE BAD) from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)
CodeHobo
All-Star
18669 Points
2648 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 22, 2012 05:59 PM|LINK
FYI - Everyone that has commented on this thread so far is a community contributer. The Microsoft folks are probably pretty busy working on MVC4 and while they do contribute to this forum from time to time, a large number of questions are answered by community memebers volunteering their time.
I'm sorry no one answered your question, but it is the type of issue that community members can't fix for you. If you want to report a bug fix, that's great but this isn't the place to do it. You should go to the ASP.NET Issue tracker on codeplex.
http://aspnet.codeplex.com/
Blog | Twitter : @Hattan