Design Patterns and half of OOP are like a cult following. It becomes a religion to people. I could simply state facts and opinions and join in the crowd but why, you will not change my mind, I can't change yours. The whole topic is bigger than being
down in the trenches. Seems that most people on here typical developers. Big ego, and probably a real jerk to be around in public. Some people are newbies, some are veterans of development, but they are not exciting to be around. Ego driven people self
destruct, along with crippling the company IT software they worked for before they move onto the next paycheck.
Most on here are only Microsoft developers. Which is fine, that is what I prefer, but if you haven't worked for at least 10 companies from Coast to Coast and coded in a dozen languages with being around many mentors and being a mentor to others then how
cocky and arrogant is that.
Crazy how hostile people get with this stuff. Some want VB.NET to go away.... everyone has an opinion. Most people do not get it. Microsoft has its pros and cons, but most on here do not see the big picture. Most have never been a CIO or CTO, nor will
they ever be.
Here is the secret: Microsoft is pushing MVC simply to enforce more OOP concepts to thus compete with Java. Most of you have never did anything with Java, having heard or used Groovy or Grails, ever used Coldfusion, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Perl etc...
The very best .NET developers are Java Converts. Java forces you to learn Hibernate, Spring, Struts ... Thus Agile development, Domain Model, Inversion of Control etc... Microsoft is about the money. They see what is successful and either steal it,
duplicate it, buy it, or do it their way. They are very good at this most of the time. Some people like ORM's , and it is usually those who come with a computer science background with little or no database training. Thus in the Java world, they can use
a beast like Oracle, or mysql .... thus they do ORM with Hibernate and use a Continuous Integration Server like Cruise Control or Hudson (which are awesome hands down).
Learn the business, learn automation engineering. Help the sales people.
I agree with MSPayCheck... Java enforces you to really get your hands dirty. To really know what is going on. You have to setup every piece of the environment.
You typically as a Java developer with work with Linux, Apache, OIC, MVC, ORM, OOP, JMeter, Continuous Integration, ANT, Maven, Scrum etc...
With Microsoft holding your hand, you do not get to really know how the engine works. I do think that the Java Experts are smart, but if they haven't converted over, they have no idea how much time they can save in the entire SDLC. A lot of great
things have come out of the Java and Open Source world, and this is why Microsoft supports PHP deployment (even though PHP is awful). Problem with PHP, Perl, Coldfusion that many people do not mention is that they are not true OOP languages, they are awful
to debug and the list goes on. I have worked with all of these languages, being paid to do Java, Perl, PHP, Python, Coldfusion, Ruby on Rails, Groovy on Grails, VB6, VB.NET and C#.
Your comment: The very best .NET developers are C# converts makes no sense. C# is .NET , are you kidding me?
Delphi? How can you or anyone compar C# and Java to Delphi.... in fact nobody does.
Sure that MSPaycheck rambles a bit, but you seem to know nothing. Proof.... you heard of um.. Books, or Google ?
or Monster.com ..... hahah
I found this thread because I was trying to figure out if I wanted to use the new ASP.NET MVC Framework and I wanted to hear both sides of the argument. This is an excellent post for drawing that out. Anytime someone says something *sucks* a passionate argument
ensues. That said based on all the things I've read to this point I don't think I'm ready to rewrite all my apps for MS's new framework; yet...
When I Googled MVC Sucks it brings up all sorts of things and a lot of passion on both sides (love it/hate it). Incidentally the passion for this goes beyond ASP.NET. I read posts from Java, PHP and others that all have this same argument.
The way I understand it MVC is a programming model/pattern and *not necessarily* a framework as M$ has done. According to Wikipeida the idea was first described in 1979. Does anyone know why it's taken so long for MS to embrace it? 30+ years?
I've been writing Web apps since the early days of the Internet when my HTML editor was Notepad and I had to FTP with the command line. (glad those days are past)
Not everything MS does is perfect from the gates. Has anyone read up on the political debacle surrounding LINQ to SQL and LINQ to Entities? The ADO.NET guys and the ASP.NET guys didn't hang out around the same water cooler much it would seem. The ADO.NET
guys won the argument hence LINQ to SQL is going away.
I like to keep an open mind and hear both sides of an argument before I make a decision such as this.
Question to the Group: Has anyone taken a mid to large size enterprise app and migrated it into ASP.NET MVC 2? How did it go? (I'm not talking about the pattern, I'm talking about the ASP.NET MVC 2 Framework)
I believe lot of people will disagree with me on this one. But the MVC model sucks. The reason:
2.Cannot handle complex UI;
5.All the good controls, GridView, Ajax.net etc are all gone.
MVC is a very mature (IIRC it's been around, at least in concept, since the late 70s) architecture that is a pleasure to develope with - if you take the time to understand how it works. There is a hell of a lot of opportunity to really use and benefit from
reusable code.
A lot of people have commented on other aspects, so I'll add in just a few of my own thoughts:-
on aspects 2 and 5 - read, learn and inwardly digest jQuery - credit for the MVC dev team for finding this and recognising its potential rather than reinventing the wheel and trying to do it all themselves. There's a hell of a lot of really cool things
you can do easily with it, plus there are lots of nice plugins available, and as it's open source, most of these are free. You can do a hell of a lot of very complex things with it - I rewrote a very complex webforms page that was running like a dog in MVC
with jQuery and now not only does it fly but it doesn't have anywhere near the bloat of the original webforms page. If you think about your development and use partial views, you can end up with a host of "plugable" code that can save you hours (you can also
do this with webforms, but the MVC seems to be a bit more elegant, to me). Again, you need to shift mindset into true AJAX rather than the code-soup you end up with, with webforms (I don't necessarily mean the code you write, but the code that is generated
by the AJAX controls and panels).
Please remember to mark replies as answers if you find them useful =8)
ASP.NET MVC's only real benefit is testing features. but the web is nothing new..,.in fact it should be mastered and perfected by now... so if a person knows how to code... Why the need to test I'll say!
ASP.NET MVC is merely a product of a seriously nerdy Software Developer's mentality for Web Development (notice I didn't say engineer)
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only going on my own experience, but you also say you want to use all the funky control, gridviews, etc - these are fine if you are running IE (so on an intranet) but they don't all work very well in other browsers - my
experience has been firefox. MVC isn't 100% happy (some dropdowns don't seem to work) but for the majority of the code it is all standard and so works cross-browser. Assuming my first statement is correct - as far as I can see a lot of the more useful controls
seem to use a lot of IE-specific code and don't work in (say the next 3 big browsers) firefox, chrome and opera, this makes webforms pretty useless for developing internet sites (from the POV of using these controls). Now I have seen plenty of sites that
are obviously webforms that work cross-browser, but these don't use these complex controls (as far as I can see) - they use javascript ones (i.e. something someone has written) and so these can be used on MVC. So if you're developing for the outside world
then I'm not sure MVC offers "as little" as you think compared to what is practical to use in webforms?
Please remember to mark replies as answers if you find them useful =8)
MSPayCheck
Member
2 Points
1 Post
Re: MVC sucks
Mar 19, 2010 03:18 AM|LINK
Design Patterns and half of OOP are like a cult following. It becomes a religion to people. I could simply state facts and opinions and join in the crowd but why, you will not change my mind, I can't change yours. The whole topic is bigger than being down in the trenches. Seems that most people on here typical developers. Big ego, and probably a real jerk to be around in public. Some people are newbies, some are veterans of development, but they are not exciting to be around. Ego driven people self destruct, along with crippling the company IT software they worked for before they move onto the next paycheck.
Most on here are only Microsoft developers. Which is fine, that is what I prefer, but if you haven't worked for at least 10 companies from Coast to Coast and coded in a dozen languages with being around many mentors and being a mentor to others then how cocky and arrogant is that.
Crazy how hostile people get with this stuff. Some want VB.NET to go away.... everyone has an opinion. Most people do not get it. Microsoft has its pros and cons, but most on here do not see the big picture. Most have never been a CIO or CTO, nor will they ever be.
Here is the secret: Microsoft is pushing MVC simply to enforce more OOP concepts to thus compete with Java. Most of you have never did anything with Java, having heard or used Groovy or Grails, ever used Coldfusion, Ruby on Rails, PHP, Perl etc...
The very best .NET developers are Java Converts. Java forces you to learn Hibernate, Spring, Struts ... Thus Agile development, Domain Model, Inversion of Control etc... Microsoft is about the money. They see what is successful and either steal it, duplicate it, buy it, or do it their way. They are very good at this most of the time. Some people like ORM's , and it is usually those who come with a computer science background with little or no database training. Thus in the Java world, they can use a beast like Oracle, or mysql .... thus they do ORM with Hibernate and use a Continuous Integration Server like Cruise Control or Hudson (which are awesome hands down).
Learn the business, learn automation engineering. Help the sales people.
ignatandrei
All-Star
135047 Points
21654 Posts
Moderator
MVP
Re: MVC sucks
Mar 19, 2010 06:53 AM|LINK
All the previous post are plain old of unverifiable words, like this :
I could say that
or
Without proofs , statistics or else ... all is a bunch of [...]
tazdotnet
Member
4 Points
3 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
Mar 19, 2010 02:46 PM|LINK
I agree with MSPayCheck... Java enforces you to really get your hands dirty. To really know what is going on. You have to setup every piece of the environment.
You typically as a Java developer with work with Linux, Apache, OIC, MVC, ORM, OOP, JMeter, Continuous Integration, ANT, Maven, Scrum etc...
With Microsoft holding your hand, you do not get to really know how the engine works. I do think that the Java Experts are smart, but if they haven't converted over, they have no idea how much time they can save in the entire SDLC. A lot of great things have come out of the Java and Open Source world, and this is why Microsoft supports PHP deployment (even though PHP is awful). Problem with PHP, Perl, Coldfusion that many people do not mention is that they are not true OOP languages, they are awful to debug and the list goes on. I have worked with all of these languages, being paid to do Java, Perl, PHP, Python, Coldfusion, Ruby on Rails, Groovy on Grails, VB6, VB.NET and C#.
Your comment: The very best .NET developers are C# converts makes no sense. C# is .NET , are you kidding me?
Delphi? How can you or anyone compar C# and Java to Delphi.... in fact nobody does.
Sure that MSPaycheck rambles a bit, but you seem to know nothing. Proof.... you heard of um.. Books, or Google ?
or Monster.com ..... hahah
JonF
Member
59 Points
33 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
May 26, 2010 09:07 PM|LINK
I found this thread because I was trying to figure out if I wanted to use the new ASP.NET MVC Framework and I wanted to hear both sides of the argument. This is an excellent post for drawing that out. Anytime someone says something *sucks* a passionate argument ensues. That said based on all the things I've read to this point I don't think I'm ready to rewrite all my apps for MS's new framework; yet...
When I Googled MVC Sucks it brings up all sorts of things and a lot of passion on both sides (love it/hate it). Incidentally the passion for this goes beyond ASP.NET. I read posts from Java, PHP and others that all have this same argument.
The way I understand it MVC is a programming model/pattern and *not necessarily* a framework as M$ has done. According to Wikipeida the idea was first described in 1979. Does anyone know why it's taken so long for MS to embrace it? 30+ years?
I've been writing Web apps since the early days of the Internet when my HTML editor was Notepad and I had to FTP with the command line. (glad those days are past)
Not everything MS does is perfect from the gates. Has anyone read up on the political debacle surrounding LINQ to SQL and LINQ to Entities? The ADO.NET guys and the ASP.NET guys didn't hang out around the same water cooler much it would seem. The ADO.NET guys won the argument hence LINQ to SQL is going away.
I like to keep an open mind and hear both sides of an argument before I make a decision such as this.
Question to the Group: Has anyone taken a mid to large size enterprise app and migrated it into ASP.NET MVC 2? How did it go? (I'm not talking about the pattern, I'm talking about the ASP.NET MVC 2 Framework)
TahirAhmadov
Member
6 Points
3 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
Jun 12, 2010 01:42 PM|LINK
Good news is, there is a solution to ASP.NET's problems: it's called the Turbo framework.
http://www.tasoftwaredesign.com/
Mad-Halfling
Participant
1438 Points
729 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
Jun 16, 2010 01:52 PM|LINK
MVC is a very mature (IIRC it's been around, at least in concept, since the late 70s) architecture that is a pleasure to develope with - if you take the time to understand how it works. There is a hell of a lot of opportunity to really use and benefit from reusable code.
A lot of people have commented on other aspects, so I'll add in just a few of my own thoughts:-
on aspects 2 and 5 - read, learn and inwardly digest jQuery - credit for the MVC dev team for finding this and recognising its potential rather than reinventing the wheel and trying to do it all themselves. There's a hell of a lot of really cool things you can do easily with it, plus there are lots of nice plugins available, and as it's open source, most of these are free. You can do a hell of a lot of very complex things with it - I rewrote a very complex webforms page that was running like a dog in MVC with jQuery and now not only does it fly but it doesn't have anywhere near the bloat of the original webforms page. If you think about your development and use partial views, you can end up with a host of "plugable" code that can save you hours (you can also do this with webforms, but the MVC seems to be a bit more elegant, to me). Again, you need to shift mindset into true AJAX rather than the code-soup you end up with, with webforms (I don't necessarily mean the code you write, but the code that is generated by the AJAX controls and panels).
PropheC
Member
14 Points
7 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
Aug 12, 2010 02:15 AM|LINK
ASP.NET MVC's only real benefit is testing features. but the web is nothing new..,.in fact it should be mastered and perfected by now... so if a person knows how to code... Why the need to test I'll say!
ASP.NET MVC is merely a product of a seriously nerdy Software Developer's mentality for Web Development (notice I didn't say engineer)
PropheC
Member
14 Points
7 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
Aug 12, 2010 02:47 AM|LINK
@saburius I could not agree with you any more...and you said this in 2008?
Prophe'C
http://twitter.com/meetPropheC
PropheC
Member
14 Points
7 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
Aug 12, 2010 02:52 AM|LINK
@ harveyliu168 I could not agree with you any more!
Prophe'C
http://twitter.com/meetPropheC
Mad-Halfling
Participant
1438 Points
729 Posts
Re: MVC sucks
Aug 16, 2010 11:33 AM|LINK
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only going on my own experience, but you also say you want to use all the funky control, gridviews, etc - these are fine if you are running IE (so on an intranet) but they don't all work very well in other browsers - my experience has been firefox. MVC isn't 100% happy (some dropdowns don't seem to work) but for the majority of the code it is all standard and so works cross-browser. Assuming my first statement is correct - as far as I can see a lot of the more useful controls seem to use a lot of IE-specific code and don't work in (say the next 3 big browsers) firefox, chrome and opera, this makes webforms pretty useless for developing internet sites (from the POV of using these controls). Now I have seen plenty of sites that are obviously webforms that work cross-browser, but these don't use these complex controls (as far as I can see) - they use javascript ones (i.e. something someone has written) and so these can be used on MVC. So if you're developing for the outside world then I'm not sure MVC offers "as little" as you think compared to what is practical to use in webforms?