Dear All,

I truly appreciate your help and feedback. I will give you below a background about our situation, the results of the research I made, and then I will mention my requirements.

1. I work in a company in IT Dept., and we are a team of 3-4 developers, with different levels of skills in ASP.NET, and with excellent development skills each in his area of specialty (Lotus Notes, Java ...etc). We have highly skilled developers in ASP.NET. We are using VS2005/SQL Server for the Web Application Development, and VSS for Source Control, in addition to other tools/platforms.

2. The objective of our team is to develop Applications for the End Users to increase their productivity (Using Web Based Applications).  The back-end systems are in UNIX/Adabas. We are using CONNX SQL Gateway for Data Access from the Web Apps to Adabas. SAP Portals will be deployed in a couple of months, and we are migrating from UNIX/Adabas to SAP in a couple of years.

3. The applications we are developing may be targeted for ALL Staff, or for certain department/section in the company The total number of the Staff is 1000 (aprox) and the avareage number of staff in each dept is 30.

4. Our biggest problem in developing Good Looking Professional Applications, and we have not yet upgraded to VS2008, so I guess AJAX for .NET 3.x, Silverlight and Expression are not an option for the near futures, but surely, we will have to upgrade sooner or later, which will take some time because we have to arrange for training, licensing, budget ...etc.

5. The time frame to build the required applications is usually tight (and always the users want the application to finish yesterday). The average period to launch an application after completing a development cycle is 2-3 months. The application goes under continuous improvements over 6-10 months, and in some cases, it will span over a couple of years.

Below is some info I found for how to build good looking web applications:

1. Using CMS Tools like DotNetNuke from: http://www.dotnetnuke.com/. and Umbraco from: http://www.umbraco.org/ , where such tools are very good in building attractive UI, but usually, as per my personal opinion, I do not recommend using such tools for cases like ours, because of the following:

  1.1. They do a lot of things for you that you don't need, which causes BLOATED Output and possible performance issues.
  1,2,  They may impose some annoying limitations,  which may force you to perform some unusual tricks to make them happen, if that is possible in the first place. So the time you saved to build the UI, has been wasted in finding solutions for tricks.
  1.3. They may require certain configuration which is not available, or will cause unwanted results.
  1.4. They require a special learning curve. Each tool has its own technique. I prefer to spend my time learning the original APS.NET infrastructure instead.
  1.5. They duplicate the functionality provided by SAP Portal, and the effort needed to implement and learn how to use this tool will be wasted.
  1.6. For DNN, it generates a Huge number of objects for SQL Server Database and Web Parts/Files/Folders under IIS, ie, it is a Bloated Engine: Each time you create a web site for an application, it will create a large number of objects which you have no control over, and if you mix different web application in the same web site, it will confusing.

---> I am interested in your feedback about such CMS tools please.

2. There is also ASP.NET Starter Kits. or CSK and several other starter kit, which seems like less complex than DNN and umbraco. I need your input on such tools and how they are different. The related link:

http://www.asp.net/community/projects/

3, I also found You also mentioned the Enterprise Library from: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa480453.aspx. It looks very promising. But, it has no reference to Web Templates, Master Pages, Style sheets, Themes, Site Navigation, Dynamic Menus and User Interface in Greneral.

4. I have done some research, and found the following links to which have ready Web Templates for Master Page, Themes, Style Sheets, Menus ...etc...:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/asp.net/aa336603.aspx
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/asp.net/aa336602.aspx
http://www.ex-designz.net/template/default.asp
http://www.beansoftware.com/ASP.NET-Tutorials/Globalisation-Multilingual-CultureInfo.aspx 
http://www.asp.net/community/control-gallery/browse.aspx?category=22

We have found a lot of web templates and Master Pages Samples, and Menu and Navigation Templates... but, the problem is that they are Static, we need to do some work to replace the static menus with Menu and Navigation Controls of ASP.NET. Do you have any feedback on this issue ? Any alternative way ?

5. For Authentication and Authorization, I was looking for a way to use Windows Authentication, and User Defined Role Based Authorization (using GenericPrincipal instead of Windows NT Groups), and I found this link which a sample code that will help me achieve my requirement:

http://weblogs.asp.net/dneimke/archive/2003/09/29/29499.aspx

And, I will use the info from this link:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/tksy7hd7.aspx

to build the required authorization module.

Our Requirements:

1. We are in bad need for a method, technique, easy to use tool, or what ever you want to call it, we are looking for a way to standardize and streamline the development of Web Applications among the Team Members. The objective is to reuse the work completed by others and have consistent way of developing application in all aspects, so that it will be easy to hand-over the work from one team member to another

2. Rich User Interface. I do not mean FLASH, Silverlite and the like, I mean good looking and professional web application (look and feel and UI). To be more specific, this covers: Master Pages, Themes, Style sheets, Site Navigations, Dynamic Menus (with User Roles), ... etc. and it does not have to be fully automated. As you know, it is really not easy to work with CSS, you must agree with me, don't you ? While CSS Editor/Builder makes it a little bit easier, you still need to have the Artistic Skills to be able to imagine what colors you need.

3. Standardize Authentication and Authorization across all applications. We are mainly using Windows Authentication, and for Authorization, I want to use user-defined Roles and assigning roles to users, and control menu access and system functions using roles.

4. Complete the development in relatively a short period: Rapid Application Development,

Your feedback, comments and recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

Regards ...

Tarek. 

 To get all your developers on the same asp.net mental page, I would recommend the following:

1. The two-part asp.net v2 training dvd from Total Training, taught by Andy Olsen.  It's top notch.  It will take a few days to run thru the dvds, but it's well worth it, you'll have a solid understanding of how to do lots of the things you need to do in asp.net v2.

 
    2.  www.ComponentArt.com has a really good looking component library.  I haven't used them yet, but they sure are darn pretty!  Definitely worth a look.

    3. www.lhotka.net has a free, open source business object framework in vb or c#.  Check out his printed books (your choice of c# or vb) describing the framework, plus his ebooks describing newer framework releases.  This is a top notch way to build solid applications that allow you to re-use the same business objects whether you want a web front end, or, a web service, windows, wpf etc front end, or all of the above.   This doesn't answer your question about the front end, but if you can build the back end quickly and reliably, it's bound to help you have more time to build the front end! It has a very active user community also.

 
4.  dotnetnuke is a nice product and you can't beat the price.  It has its quirks, and you are right, some portions are bloated and have limitations.  You will find that true of every portal.  Since you already have one, I wouldn't recommend using two if you can avoid it! :)

Forgot to add:

The ajax control toolkit you can download and install has some very nice, free components.

However, many of them do not play together well.  Expect to do a great deal of cursing when combining any two of the controls together for the first time. 

And, you will probably need to develop your own custom controls.  Some can be quite trivial, others are a MAJOR investment.  It is not always apparent from the beginning which new control will fall into which category. :(

You will need every book/book fragment you can find on the subject, plus a host of online articles, if you want to build controls the right way.  Quite a few web articles show shortcut ways that work for a given developer's way of using the control, but won't work like any normal control.  A topics to especially watch out for is viewstate handling.   

david wendelken:

The ajax control toolkit you can download and install has some very nice, free components.

However, many of them do not play together well.  Expect to do a great deal of cursing when combining any two of the controls together for the first time. 

I just took a quick look at Ajax Control Toolkit and looks very promissing. Thanks a lot, I thin this is a step forward. Ok, in the beginning, I will not try to use 2 controls in the same page.

Another comment, as since we are moving to $$SAP$$, we will not be able at the time being to request putting any budget for such tools. Anything more than 100US$ will be difficult to get.

I will give a try for Ajax Toolkit, and let you now the result.

Tarek. 

tarekahf:

I just took a quick look at Ajax Control Toolkit and looks very promissing. Thanks a lot, I thin this is a step forward. Ok, in the beginning, I will not try to use 2 controls in the same page.

It's ok to use more than one on a page, just expect that if you have the two interact in some way, they may not interact the way you want/think they should.

Also, I corrected the url on the free, open-source framework I mentioned above.  It's www.lhotka.NET.   You should REALLY take a look at it, it's first rate.

david wendelken:

Also, I corrected the url on the free, open-source framework I mentioned above.  It's www.lhotka.NET.   You should REALLY take a look at it, it's first rate.

Looks great !

I am now joining the CSLA.NET Forums in www.lhotka.net, and I will post the relevant parts of this thread in the such forums. I have already posted it here.

I have read the definition of CSLA.NET, and I think the missing part is UI, Presentaiton, and Authorization, if I am not missing anything...!!??

It seems there are a lot of good alternatives to DNN ?

Let us see. 

Tarek. 

 Authorization is included in the business objects.  It's handled very nicely.  

 The UI and Presentation layers are your responsibility, but the framework makes the necessary steps pretty easy to do.  It's very supportive.

Check out the sample projects in the UI technology stack that you are interested in, you'll see examples of how to code those layers to use the business object layer.

david wendelken:

 Authorization is included in the business objects.  It's handled very nicely.  

 The UI and Presentation layers are your responsibility, but the framework makes the necessary steps pretty easy to do.  It's very supportive.

Yes ! I was reading about CSLA.NET, and the more I read about it, the more I realize the power of it. It actually has everything I was looking for, except probably the UI (No Ready Made Templates/Thems/CSS...etc).

Check out the sample projects in the UI technology stack that you are interested in, you'll see examples of how to code those layers to use the business object layer.

Could you please give me a link to the UI Tech. Stack you are refering to? I am not exactly sure if you are refering to the CSLA.NET Website, or here in ASP.NET ?

I also found Web Client Software Factory from Microsoft, and MVP (I like this also becuase it is light weight) .... I am now spending some efforts to evaluate those different options, eventually, I will have to make a solid proposal to the Management (as opposed to DNN which is still under evaluation). This Proposal must provide a framework for:

1. Coding Business Logic, mapping to Back-End Database, and Integrating with the UI.

2. Authorization,

3. Overall Look and feel of the Web Site,

4. Site Navigation and Menus.

5. UI Desing and Presentaiton.

When you download the CSLA framework, it also comes with a sample set of applications for a simple project tracking application.

The sample application includes a project tracker database and business object library.

It also includes a variety of UI implementations: asp.net webforms, windows forms,  web services, wpf, wcf , etc.  That's what I meant by  pick your UI technology stack.

Pick the sample application front end that you want, and learn how to hook into the business object  layer from it.
 

I have started with CSLA.NET and surely I will continue with WCSF, as from your comments, I cannot wait to install it and play with it.

Check this link for deais:

http://forums.lhotka.net/forums/permalink/22481/22456/ShowThread.aspx#22456

and

http://forums.lhotka.net/forums/thread/22379.aspx

Tarek.

I have started working with the PTWeb Sample Proejct of CSLA.NET.

I need help and I will post reference to the posts I made in the CSLA.NET Forums:

Windows Authentication with CSLA.NET

How to build a Business Object using CSLA.NET to access data from 2 different Databases.

You help will be appreciated.

Tarek.

commented on both.  best of luck! 

I have been working with CSLA for a couple of weeks, and I created a sample application for our environment, and enabled Mixed Authentication Mode: Forms + Windows and developed a custom BO to access Staff Basic Info from Adabas Back-End Database. I am now scheduling for a presentation for the team members.

CSLA seems to be a great framework. Requires some effort to learn the details.

My next issue is to find a light-weight tool to allow building Themes and Skins for Master Pages, Menus and other Presentation/UI Elements and controls, and provide easy method to switch themes/skins.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Tarek.