I lost a lot more time than a day or two with issues we ran into going from the CTPs to the Betas and RC...  Source control comes in handy though.  It wasn't too bad going back.

I'm sorry, but I think that an answer for all questions is very easy, just go to the site from Microsoft http://ajax.asp.net/ and start reading - "ASP.NET AJAX is a free framework...". There are different AJAX solutions from other companies and they are more stable. I'm really don't know what MS AJAX team is creating during approximately one year (I'm not sure about real time, but it is long 100%). I know an one thing - it is a good project from Microsoft for the AJAX team (salary).... ;) Unfortunately we haven't the same requirements from customers (AJAX framework etc), because it is a little bit interesting....

 

Dino, there is apparently a bug in our build process that is the source of much of your frustration.  The script resources used at runtime are not the same as the stale ones that were written to disk.  Several of the items you report as old bugs have actually been fixed.  We are investigating the build problem and will put out another version of the CTP with the scripts in sync when the problem is solved.

Please continue to share any issues you run into and we can help investigate.  The last set of changes since the RC are intended to just finish up the quality, ensure that performance and stress under load are good, and avoid functional differences as much as possible.

hello Matt,

the name is Luis :) (I'm assuming you're answering my post)

glad to know that...i was really frustrated because the bugs are old and i was assured that they were solved in the internal builds you had. you can guess how it feels to delete the old files and put in the new ones and see that they have the same bugs (the worst part was recalling why those errors were there - i knew i've seen them in the past, but didn't recall all of them).

btw, one last question: what's the story on the previewscript.js file? which version is correct? i'm assuming that the embedded file is the one to use, but I'd like some feedback on this. in that case, i think it's safe to assume that all the behaviors that were there are going to be removed?

thanks again.

Sorry Luis,  I must have been looking at something Dino Esposito posted when typing my reply.

 The correct script is the one that is embedded.  Yes, we do test.  You know that.  That's why the one put on disk got out without being updated.  The functional tests didn't catch the error because that code isn't running.

Three things were removed from the CTP because the functionality is in the Toolkit:  AutoCompleteExtender, HoverBehavior and PopupBehavior.

Wow - that's a little harsh.  I was perfectly happy with RC1 and think what MS has built is very nice and I'm getting a lot more use out it than some premium 3rd party "AJAX" controls, I've purchased.  It's just been a tough day.

It's not just a tough call. Maybe Microsoft in the future should be more transparent about the next release step of their own product. The transparency should also include changes and feature removals. These gotchas have happened elsewhere, for example the MS Cider for VS 2005 that suddenly doesn't have anymore further releases for VS 2005 (The next release will be integrated into VS Orcas). See this thread on MS forum about about Cider release confusions.
Some developers (including me) have quite gone frustrated and confused about these. We can't wait for Orcas, while my own company's adoption of WPF have gone strong, and my customer bases are also have WPF installed. Any sudden changes are pushing me back for few months just to adapt it, and this is a real showstopper. Also in the case of MS AJAX, changes in controls and features can't be easily compromised.

Some of my colleagues thought that the MS AJAX RC1 release has frozen features, but the fact (of the release version) doesn't have that, it really breaks some features.

My suggestions are (and these are from my subjective experiences and my personal opinions):

• MS should take examples from the RCs of Windows Vista SDK release candidate; the feature was frozen and still the same for the release version. Also see the outside, Eclipse IDE development cycle has taken this approach too.
• MS should honestly told us that some features or controls are still in trial or experimental stages, therefore we as developers already know that we should not rely the experimental features can be dropped or changed in the futures. PHP has many samples of these experimental features.
• MS AJAX development cycle is not quite clear enough in the context of roadmap. It's still confusing when compared to MS own Visual Studio roadmap from Whidbey (VS 2005) to Orcas that has been displayed on MSDN website for a long time. Therefore, further clarification about future roadmap is highly needed.
• MS AJAX has no clear documentation, and the latest documentation is only available online . This is also a major drawback, since we have to search the latest documentation of AJAX online. Why doesn't MS release AJAX offline documentation packages such as MSDN Library? Some of my colleagues think that this fact could make people think that MS wants us to know that there will be no stable documentation. Even PHP, Java, and MSDN library itself can be downloaded, so we can be pretty sure about AJAX features and specs and told our clients that we have the offline documentation, and they can have it too.
  

That's all, for MS AJAX for now. I'll try to catch the release version of MS AJAX. But if the release version doesn't prove to be more productive for some cases, and then I'll consider to move back to the RC release, since some of my web software projects have used MS AJAX RC.

br, 

Eriawan
RX Communica, Indonesia
 

PS: I'm sorry for my bad English grammar. 

Hello Matt. 

 

mattgi:

Sorry Luis,  I must have been looking at something Dino Esposito posted when typing my reply.

 

no problem. 

mattgi:

 The correct script is the one that is embedded.  Yes, we do test.  You know that.  That's why the one put on disk got out without being updated.  The functional tests didn't catch the error because that code isn't running.

Glad to know that. I'll just copy all the js files from the dll and re-run my tests to see if the embedded js files have the same bugs as the files that are placed on the installation dir. 

I'm under the impression that my criticism on the RTM release has struck a nerve. If that is the case, there's no need to be offended. after all, i'm speaking about the product, not the people involved. please don't be like 99.9 % of us (portuguese) that always "receive" work critics as personal offenses. there's simple no reason for that! if anyone got offended and took it personally, then that wasn't my intention and I offer my sincere apologies.

I'm sure that it's not pleasant to hear me ranting about the product... on the other hand, it's also not funny to download the final release, which was hold back for testing, and then start seeing the same errors all over again. specially when you don't remember all of them and have to go through the code to find them again.

 
I do agree with a  post that has been made by another guy in this thread: I think that since we're getting more and more ctps of MS products, we should also get some sort of roadmap for the next release.

  Having said that, i do think that the AJAX extensions is a great platform and I do think it's destined for success.

mattgi:

Three things were removed from the CTP because the functionality is in the Toolkit:  AutoCompleteExtender, HoverBehavior and PopupBehavior.

 

thanks for the info. 

This is just my 2 cents - I have stayed off the forums as I simply got frustrated with lack of answers and needless documentation of my issues...

 

So take it for it is worth - not a rant - just a summary of what Version 1 and all previous versions have always had...

 

What wasn't fixed:

 

AjaxToolKit: MSFT AjaxToolKit: Bizarre DynamicServicePath - well Path Issue AND SOLUTION even though it was stated it would be..

 

What was fixed.  Modal's now no longer loose the dropdownlists when a ModalPopup is invoked and cancelled in IE or FF.

 

What wasn't fixed:

 

Broken image links will cause the update panel and toolkit controls to go beserk.  However, beyond a 404 not found - as shown in fiddler - you will have no idea it was an issue unless you start actually testing your application and soon realize that you start getting weird behavior. 

 

The ScriptManager error module does not capture all Ajax error events but somehow it manages to hide from the  .Net 2.0 exception tracking - the actual hard exceptions.  For instance - for some reason a Modal with multiple controls was invoking a dynamic control that was apparently not being invoked properly and therefore could not bind a datasource...Instead of a actual exception being thrown where it would of been logged.. instead the SC< would respond with a "Could not find control " in a control that was loaded after the control that generated the first error.  Try tracking that down.  But then this has been a problem since it went from the Atlas codebase to the Ajax RC codebase.

 

Once the SCM gets into a certain state - it is almost impossible to track down coding issues. For example the image not found I stated above - typically not having a image not found should not cause the DOM get into a distorted state.  However, the SCM / AJAX looks at it as a missing resource and therefore bombs out on any other axd requests.  I had mentioned this in the forums before but that post just ignored.

 

In some the project I am working on - I had a Modal within its own update panel and a seperate panel that housed a gridview (you can see my blogs on this as this has been the only Ajax related thing I have worked on)...The Modal had about 15 controls that I used the CSS display:none or style.clear (from [controlname].Style.Add or Clear..in code behind.  I dscovered that the AXDs were being truncated with a large amound of script data.  More specifically, since the modal's update panel was seperate from the gridview's update panel but the update panel would invoke the modal (getting confused here?) that even if the updates occured in the modal update panel the gridview's modal would also invoke and somehow wrap them both up.  So, I did two things:

 

1. I removed any and all updatepanel.update() from code-behind. 

2. I nested the modal update panel into the gridview panel and subsequently made each control being loaded in the modal have its own update panel(alot of nesting going on here now).  This got rid of a bunch of JS errors that I had no idea what they were because the SCM would not generate a error - no CLR exceptions were being thrown but using Firebug in FF - could easily be seen.  All of those errors were in the ScriptResource.AXD.

 

So, now I am having to do a bunch of logging each step of the code that is in the control.  Where normally I would just do a try / catch on the calling method - now I have to do it on pretty much each and every method especially anywhere there is a case a error could be thrown (but should generate a stop - application exception).  This is time consuming and considering that I have the asynch error code in all of the modules (part of a delegate that all controls inherit from).. none of this should be an issue but is..

 

Other quirks:

 

Modal Popup from the toolkit scrolls the background when using a scrolling wheel on the mouse.  So not only do you scroll the modal but when modal size is exceded it scrolls the background page.  What is even weirder that the background page scrolls indefinitely...  Kinda nuisance and considering if this is the trade-off from having databound controls dissapear on a Modal Popup invocation - I'll take the nuisance...

 

I can't get a actual javascript routine to work via any of the documention provided.  I spent a good two days trying to trace down the 'known work around' (its so well known there are no links to code anywhere but everyone says its out there just search for it - me thinketh - myth..).. Finally found some code that might work , placed it in a script file - added the Sys..(notifiy when loaded) at the end...added the code..  added the:

 

protected override void OnPreRender(EventArgs e)

{

try

{

ScriptReference reference = new ScriptReference();

reference.Path = (ResolveUrl(

"~/scripts/uploader.js"));

SM.Scripts.Add(reference);

//this code loads the script but invokes it each time a update panel is updated... frustrating...

// ScriptManager.RegisterClientScriptInclude(

// this,

// typeof(Page),

// "AIM",

// ResolveUrl("~/scripts/uploader.js"));

}

Tried a multitude of things but not quite sure why its not working or why other code didn't work - I simply never get the script loaded.  I am concerned because as the main portion of the blog entry details - if its an error elsewhere...and the SCM is hiding it (as I get no errors running this code)..well java me confused..

 

So, all in all - pretty much more of the same. 

 

Here is what I would like to see:

 

1.  Stop doing all the video tutorials without a corresponding written article.  Personally I find watching programming videos the worst spent time. Myself - I just want an article and code snippetts to cut and paste and play with... last time I checked there was no clip and paste from video feature...

 

2. Actual examples of solving real world issues with the core AJAX product (and not the AjaxToolKit... For example - how do we convert gridview java for highlighting on mouseover ...How do we work around the fileupload issue with the hidden iframe using AJAX and JAVA...(I am thinking of using WCF for this myself and or WebMethods to work around the asynch uploading issue)

 3. How to determine when we need to change from a Page.ClientScript to ScriptManager.ClientScript especially when trying to render control attributes..The Page routines work but do they break the SCM/  (That was another thing I did was nuked all references to Page.[register anything]...

4. Somewhere - all of the known answers to typical answers should be formulated into a series of FAQ stickies..on the Forums.  The search feature on ASP.Net is deplorable.  Notice no search box on the forum now.  When you click the searh button - it shows all forums selected, and not the calling section anymore, and retains no viewstate less the words to search and resets everything.  It also doesn't sort according from most recent date which makes it incredibly difficult to sift through everything...

5. The voting feature on codeplex... poor choice of reliance...Last thing I want to have be concerned with with is whether or not a bug issue is voted on more than others...What I want as a customer (and while Ajax may be free - if its free support then I am a customer regardless) is individual attention to a problem especially if providing repro code and possible resolution for the problem..Then again I am a old man now so voting to get something fixed isn't high on my agenda especially since the last major vote I was involved in still got Bush elected..

 

And these are merely my experiences and opinions...with VERSION 1. The official product...(although most can be said to been issues in previous releases)...

 

 

After All you posted here I think you ignore some important part of the idea, you were testing a Community Preview Technology! that means you've been agreeing you may have to change lots of codes in future.

I don't want to hide many limitations of currently released Framework, but I think it's cruel to ignore AJAX team's efforts and being frustrated for something we should know will be happened!

If I Could make a serious critique over their works, I would choose Documentation, which is really poor, not the code bits. 

hello mophpor.

I'm not being unfair with the team. They're really good (much much better than me, there's really no comparison) and have produced a great product. Since it seems like you haven't been around these forums for a long time, i think that you're not seeing our point (at least mine). I'm not complaining about changes. I'm complaining about bugs (like in errors) which were supposed to be solved and aren't. according to Matt, they were really solved and there was some complications in the internal build process which resulted in giving us the wrong bits.

so, we're not talking about ctp changes but about bugs that have been propagated through all the releases till the current one.
 

Dear Luis,

Maybe you're right, I wasn't around here on posting but it doesn't mean I was totally out, I was just reading, plus I didn't need any posting here... Anyway, as i said (and I'm still doing so) most errors and exceptions addressed here are related to a CTP , mostly AJAX Control toolkit, or Ajax Preview.

I'm developing Web site for more than 10 years and I don believe AJAX is the most important evolution of Web Development.

But I am still worry about documentation, I don't know what happened to them? When they plan to publish some valuable Documentation instead of funny Videos or blog posts?!

Anyway, we (Me and you as customers) have our expectations, and I hope we will be satisfied ASAP.

Thanks for your open discussion here dear Luis.

hello.

by saying that you  haven't been around for some time I'm not saying that you don't have experience on web programming (or something along those lines). I'm just saying that if you'd been here for more time, you'd see that my complains about the platform are old and aren't really related with breaking changes but with bugs that seemed to propagate from previous releases to this last one. even though we're talking about he future bits, it do believe that these problems *should*  be solved.

regarding documentation, you're only getting info on the core bits. and i think that it's still work in progress...

 

Why would anyone think a pre-release product has "frozen features".  Come on we programmers that chose to live on the bleeding edge and be early adopters should know understand that this is the risk we face.  I for one, went against my better judgement when I started using prelease AJAX controls in my code, but it was so darn cool and replaced a lot of the tiresome custom coding I was doing -- I just couldn't help myself.

 That being said, I am a little disappointed that the RTM seems like a step backward (at least initially).  Seems more like a RC2 to me.

This latest set up changes didn't seem to be that big of a deal though compared to all the issues we face with our sites from the major jump from the July CTP to the Betas and RC.  Most of our controls weren't working, and a lot of functionality was removed along with the amount of controls supported by the update panel.  I know it was pre-release, but when the CTPs were increasingly getting better, that was a big shift when everything stopped working for us.  The only thing that I wish was done better is that people working on the project could have posted updates either here or in the docs about what they were not going to support anymore.  That would have just been much better than downloading the new release each time only to find out that nothing is going to work again.  There had also sometimes been a lack of testing before releases.  For example I think it was Beta 1 that was released, but never tested on a web sever without visual studio installed, and a hack had to be done to get it to work.  I do like the toolkit, but I just wish some things had been done differently.