DotNetNuke

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

RLyda — Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:39:01 GMT

smcculloch wrote:
I'm going to implement a voting system on my site so people can vote on what I should spend my time on, users can report bugs or suggestions and subscribers can vote. Whatever is at the top of list is what I spend my time on.. I think this is a really good way to do it.

Perhaps you could start with something simple like the reviews star count? Enter an item for each enhancement, then wailt for the reviews. Don't these get averaged for an item already? So all that is missing is some higher level view, sorted by rating...

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

smcculloch — Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:40:45 GMT

I'm going to implement a voting system on my site so people can vote on what I should spend my time on, users can report bugs or suggestions and subscribers can vote. Whatever is at the top of list is what I spend my time on.. I think this is a really good way to do it.

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

brian_c — Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:31:07 GMT

take on a partner

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

rodneyjoyce — Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:25:33 GMT

One thing I am finding as my site grows is that I am SWAMPED with requests for all sorts of things - everyone seems to use modules and DNN in a slightly different way and this leads to some interesting requests. I am spending a lot of time answering questions and handling requests instead of working on Smart-Thinker modules. A lot of these questions could be solved by RT(F)M'ing ;)

Another interesting thing I have found with the Subscriber model is that everyone considers their particular module the most important. For example, I have 6 modules out and 2 in the pipeline (to be honest I prefer to work on new modules because it's more exciting ;) but everyone wants the next version of the module they are interested in - it's important to understand that the product lifecycle is quite different - I have to spend a week or more on each module in a massive rotation cycle, although this will change as my modules mature - I guess Scotts modules are more established so he can focus on enhancments and polishing them off.

It's also a delicate balance of how many modules you have in your portfolio - each one generates interest and is time consuming - but at the same time increases subscriber value. Then there is the issue of deciding where to spend time - working on enhancements or working on new modules - I have started a Survey on Smart-Thinker (which will be permanent) to try to judge where I should be spending my time. I have noticed I have to be more strict on customizations and requests that could be actioned by users - ie. changing list data - In the past I would have done this for someone, but due to time constraints it's just not possible now, so it's a case of prioritizing requests accordingly...

I'll also take this oppurtunity to ask the following if you are a Smart-Thinker user:
PLEASE use the the Forums on Smart-Thinker and read the FAQs before emailing me directly (or PM'ing me).

I am spending too much time answering questions that have been discussed on the Forums when I could be enhancing the modules.
Of course, this is just a friendly reminder - if you need to contact me on a matter that only I can resolve then email me directly by all means!

Hmmm - after re-reading my post I might have come across a bit harsh, but I'm just trying to get things under control so I can best fulfill requests ;)

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

midspot — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:31:56 GMT

maybe we shouldn't use the word subscription if ti carries a stigma or negative connotation.

Maybe we should think of a more friendly word such as membership or something that does not imply commitment as much.

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

rodneyjoyce — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:15:26 GMT

Hmm - that depends on a variety of factors, eg. your personal goals, current income, expectations, reasons for development and future goals, pricing model of subscription (depends on quality/complexity of modules)... so without going into numerical detail:

For eg. I code for the love of it, and this is a small way of rewarding myself (out of interest, I tried PocketPC games but the market is saturated and I was charging $10 for a game that was FAR more complex than a module)
My goal is to one day work for myself and employ others - this is a small step in that direction - this might not be the answer but it may be the start
Current income - decent London .net developer - would be hard to match salary with module dev - hence I am not in it for the money (at the moment) - I guess the real money is in ene to end DNN solutions with support contracts, but I love coding to match to do all that at the moment...
Expectations: Sharing knowledge/products that are mutually benefitial for subscribers and myself

So for me at the moment I am trying to create a very attractive subscription offer - the money side of it is irrelevant at this stage, but I am I trying to see the bigger picture... definitely will have a clearer picture in a years time ;)

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

vmasanas — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:38:06 GMT

rodneyjoyce wrote:
... is it not unrealistic for a subscriber to pay $50 or so for a year of modules. source, support (and all other subscriber benefits) and still expect the host to be active for the whole year?...

Question is how many subscribers would you need to make this work for your a as seller. 100? 200? What do you think can you get as your user base?

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

rodneyjoyce — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:34:42 GMT

nokiko wrote:

Well I was talking more out of my experience with the subscription site for graphics, so subscribption based site for clipart stockphoto and alike.

Yes, perhaps we just need to somehow raise public awareness of the pros and cons of the subscription model within the DNN realm (I agree - it has definitely proven itself in other arenas). An FAQ or article endorsing it (or at least explaining it) on the main DNN site would be benefitial for the community and increase confidence in the model...

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

rodneyjoyce — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:31:20 GMT

vmasanas wrote:

Offering a year, half year, or whatever period subscription mean that you as a developer are commited to provide rich content for the site (modules, articles, tools, support ...) during this period. This will need many, many time to cope with the expectations.

Is this really the case though? I agree, in order to satisfy your subscribers you have to be active (and I plan to be, for the record)... however - is it not unrealistic for a subscriber to pay $50 or so for a year of modules. source, support (and all other subscriber benefits) and still expect the host to be active for the whole year? If you downloaded all modules and source from my site, I think that is ample renumeration for the $50 in one period - I don't think I should have to provide constant new modules etc. for the rest of the period (again - don't get me wrong - I am merely raising a point from the subscription sellers POV) - I agree that if it were a reccurring payment then it's fair that you provide your subscribers with their moneys worth for the next period they pay for, but this doesn't necessarily equate to time. I guess as long as the subscriber is satisified with return on investment per period then that is all that matters... of course, the great thing about the subscription model is that every little piece of work I do and eveyr addin I write for a subscriber increases the attractiveness of the subscription value, and therefore your subscriber base!

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

nokiko — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:31:03 GMT

rodneyjoyce wrote:
I'm not convinced this is the case nokiko - but I'm not sure how to prove it

Well I was talking more out of my experience with the subscription site for graphics, so subscribption based site for clipart stockphoto and alike.

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

rodneyjoyce — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:24:42 GMT

nokiko wrote:
There are plenty of peole who dont want to buy because of several reasons but are more inclined to use the subscription.

I'm not convinced this is the case nokiko - but I'm not sure how to prove it - as I mentioned on the other thread - I've had people asking me if they can just but my Events module at the old price ($40) and not take the subscription ($35 gets you 6 months and all other modules) - I didn't understand why this was, but I presume it's the thought of the recurring payment or the term "subscription" implies obligation or committment on a customers behalf. This is the view I am trying to eradicate though, because subscriptions can be cancelled at anytime (and the subscriber still has access for the remainder of their initial subscription) so it's almost as though the customer bought all your modules on SC for $35 and then is entitled to free upgrades and new modules for the next 6 months - yet some people can't see that?!

I do think that discussions such as these raise awareness (it is a fairly new concept in terms of module dev, with the model project being Scott's website)... I do think it does need more exposure and awareness in order to compete with SC as a viable alternative model - advertising and education ;)

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

nokiko — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:14:11 GMT

The reason why I started to think about this subscription model was the idea that if you would supply more work then you would regular do on snowcovered ( single sales ). There are plenty of peole who dont want to buy because of several reasons but are more inclined to use the subscription.

This would have several advanntages. One place to give and get support and a community of people helping eachother instead of me having to give the same answers over and over and over again.

Maybe more money because people that would normally not buy somethng would do this with this subscription model. So even if you are getting paid less for more then nr of subscriptions would overcome this ( in theory ). And maybe people asking me to do custom work getting freelance jobs and alike

Im not into this for the money ( module income is peanuts compared to normal income ) but just to get some acknowledgement and reward of the time I spend on this thing they call DNN. And to somewhat defend the time I spend on this to other people around me :)

You should just start off with enough content to make sure that the initial subscribers who pay for it will have good worth for there money even iffor some reason you have to stop for a while or go in slower pace that they still feel good about what they bought

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

vmasanas — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:52:11 GMT

Men if you don't stop posting such long threads we will not be able to work ;) Lots of interesting points here.

phebous wrote:

4) How to recompense the core team?

This is a good question, but maybe the question which should be asked is how would the core team like to compensated verses just throwing money at them (Although who would hate that? Not I! I think if they really needed or wanted money they would make it easier just to donate to them.) ?

This my opinion and only mine: I don't work on core team as a way to get some "monetary" compensation. This is my part of giving away some time to participate in such a great product and try to make it even better. I've already noted my opinion about this in other threads: for me receiving a offer from someone to use their modules for free is a nice approach. That said, I'd also say this should only be used in (for CT members) in a limited way. I would not for myself take avandatge of this offer and start building and selling web sites using other's modules in a big scale.

You know what I would really like to see as good "compensation" for us? That some of the pending items in Gemini could be taken by someone and be explored and investigated and a solution was proposed for some of the most important bugs. This would mean the comunity is involved in the whole project and not only CT members are actively working on it. I know it's already being done, but a bit more on this wouldn't hurt for sure. At the end of the day this will help releasing some of our resources from bug catching to more active project development, hence to improve and expand DNN.

smcculloch wrote:
Quite an interesting thread here

As noted earlier, donated modules grow dust. I could not justify to my wife the time required to work on core and free modules and also keep them up to date. It's just not possible. So I had to make a few choices about the work

Good point Scott, this is the same problem I'm facing now. Should I invest as much time on core work as on my free modules? Does it make sense? Shouldn't the core work be the free part and other parts be rewarded a bit? I have two kids and they also require attention so another extra hour on dnn is not a simple decision.
I see you managed to move to a part time job. That's good and an interesting approach if you could afford it. I for myself cannot.

So at this point I need to also make a decision: either stop from doing more free work for dnn or get some reward on the time I invest on it. I would prefer the second option (finally I love it!). I see we are on the same page here.

The problem I see with the subscription model is that it would need a great amount of subscribers to keep to work correctly paid with such rates. Offering a year, half year, or whatever period subscription mean that you as a developer are commited to provide rich content for the site (modules, articles, tools, support ...) during this period. This will need many, many time to cope with the expectations.

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

rodneyjoyce — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:41:14 GMT

Noel: (Of DNNGurus) you mentioned in another thread (but I think it belongs here ;) that you would supporting the subscription model on your website: Could you elaborate on how you plan to do this please?

If you are making revenue off SC referrals - would there be a fee to pay?

aaava: been thinking about the group of developers contributing to a group of subscriber-available products: It's a great idea, but the logistics of it are scary - for example, say I supplied 3 modules, and you supplier 5, how do you weight the payments? For every developer that joins the profits will be diluted (although subscriptions should increase) but it would be really tricky. I was thinking of some kind of system where you get 10 "credits" and can download 10 modules every x days, but then it just got too complicated and started looking like SC again. The fact is that modules are of different attractivenss and quality (and a simple module that took 1 day to write can be far more useful than a compex module that took 3 months - just depends on whether there is a need for it or not. I think these kinds of issues would make the "vitural team" tricky?

Re: I thought I'd add a new thread, about the Subscription Model, ideas on how to recompense the core team, and other ideas...

phebous — Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:09:48 GMT

aaava wrote:

My point is, you can call it a different revenue model, but it's not socialist. Just as new technologies emerge, why not new selling models? After all, almost NO newspapers, tvstations, etc., ad nauseum have figured out how to make any dang money on the web! And it's because they can't think out of the box on things outside their spectrum. And no, I'm not saying you are like this. You and I both know, based on our discussions on features and stuff that we think alike this way. What I think you're not opening up to is that the ones who flog ARE and WILL hurt your business. Because what'll happen is that some few will generate most of the earnings, see that this Amazon module looks ok, but the dude that spent all the time building it, doesn't have the revenues to compete with us. So we'll come up w/the same thing, charge 50 bucks including source add a few features, and six months or a year from now you'll be cussing them. But see, they *saw* a hole in your marketing strategy and took advantage of it. Now a year from now you're gone..decided the money wasn't good enough. They raise the prices again, and who has gained? Sure, this is how market forces work most times. It's why we have one cable company and cuss 'em, while some numbnuts tell us 'there IS competition...you can get a satellite dish!'. Just something to think about. None of us have a clue what will happen in a year. You know I wish you well, because I bought your danged product.

I have an indifferent view on Socialism, and Capitalism. This is why I used that term to describe my vision of this idea. There is an air of community well being and comments what is best for the society. This reminds me of what socialism was proclaiming. Is this a fair description of the Subscription Model? I think it is up to each individual reader of this post to decide for them self. But remember, this is only words and no offense should be construed in it.

With that said, since I was a child, I have been awe of computers and the advancement in this area. So I would do this for free if I didn’t have to support my family. Since I have to make sure of their well being, I have to think of the individual and make decisions based on this. Now if I make the correct decisions and I can get this business going, then I can give up my 9 to 5 which pays the bills. Does this mean I can not think outside of the box? Not really, since I am here trying to understand the model. Maybe technology has changed the software industry enough to allow this idea to flourish.

aaava wrote:

However, the customer relationship issue you mention...well as a customer I can tell you that it doesn't exist mostly right now. Absolutely not. Most programmers do not understand the customer relationship and this has been proven by the number of modules I've purchased and the lack of capability to give feedback and suggestions and man, I could go on. Look at Scott's site. *That's* how to communicate w/a customer. Whether Subscriber or whatever. However, the point I want to emphasize again, is that when you have a subscriber, you have more than just a customer. You have someone who will help answer questions in forums. You have people that are more willing to give you ideas on enhancements, because heck, 'why should I give YOU ideas to make your product better?' There's nothing in it for me! That's what a *customer* thinks. I don't think that's what a subscriber in a community thinks. S/he's gotten to *know* you. There's no way you could spend the time you did w/me for every customer. You'd go out of business, spending all your time answering questions. It's a different mindset, IMO. But 'socialist' is not what it is. It's a *different* business model, that is being discussed...and it could also lead to other things I've mentioned. Like creating virtual teams. Either way, modules *will* get weeded out. Programmers will stop supporting them because they only had an idea for one or two modules and it wasn't enough to support them. Well, a system in place to *purchase* the license rights, and upgrade that product for *your* subscriber set, would bring all those previous subscribers to your site. Hey, just ideas. Consider them. I'm old enough to know that it's almost impossible to change people's minds...especially to new tings...and especially when I have no proof it would raise revenues and increase the sense of community...

Well, what it sounds like to me is that you are expecting a customer relationship like when you would have from Microsoft. Well, I can tell you that there isn’t any “Community” from them. The only thing they respond to is money, which is a good thing since I own some stock. Plus, we have to remember that this is an Open Source project. This is birthed from one person’s idea and many people’s contributions. There isn’t one place we can go for a solution. This makes the support you are longing for nearly improbable. (Notice, I didn’t say impossible. This is because of the success of Linux and Red Hat, which is from the same birth as DNN.)

I like the idea of virtual teams. I know that I have weaknesses, like everybody. This is where teams come in great. They help each other achieve goals which never can be achieved alone. I also like the idea of the Subscription Model, although I am just apprehensive on jumping in with both feet.

aaava wrote:

Hmm. My point exactly. '..it seems to have lost everyone's attention...'. I've been watching this happen for a year now. What's the incentive to keep it up? Would *you* do it for no money? Of course not. So why expect someone else to? It's why I think it's something we should think of ways to incentivize the core team to put it as a portal on the dotnetnuke site, and also add the URL to the install.txt. Advertising doesn't get any better than that does it?

Actually, I have done things like this for years for free. It stems from my love of computers and technology. Would I do it for free if I didn’t have any other source of income? No, I have to think of my family first and my other desires second. I like the idea of getting the URL to the DNN site. I hope it happens. It will lend a significant amount of creditability to this idea.

aaava wrote:

As for a strong community, well I guess so. Though there are 150K+ users. Obviously a great majority of them are not buying ANY modules. Ask yourself why? And they're not here on this forum either, helping others w/questions. So, the people that *do* participate are great. The question is, what are we doing wrong that a great majority of users are *not* participating and purchasing modules. And please don't answer w/'well, they don't need any custom modules'. Heck, unless the users are ALL ISPS, they could always use modules. And participate more, right?

Although there are 150K+ registered users, how many of the actually do something with the software? How many people are able to get a site up and going? So assuming that they downloaded it because it was the latest thing, I don’t think that many of them are around to use it.

aaava wrote:
phebous wrote:

4) How to recompense the core team?

This is a good question, but maybe the question which should be asked is how would the core team like to compensated verses just throwing money at them (Although who would hate that? Not I! I think if they really needed or wanted money they would make it easier just to donate to them.) ?

See, I think you wanna take that statement back. ;-) Why is it throwing money at the core team for their work, but not throwing money at you for your work? I'd rather not touch this 'un...We both know that human nature and 'donate' modules grow dust. Ask Scott, he'll tell ya.

I think that you misunderstood me. I am not saying that the core team should not be compensated. What I am saying is we should ask the core team what they would like in return for their hard work. They certainly deserve something, but what? Maybe they would like you to buy their book? Maybe they are looking for their name in lights? Maybe they want donations? I don’t know. But I do know they certainly deserve something.

aaava wrote:

I agree w/this. Just wanted to add that if a system was in place to purchase, 'licenses' for code of the ones that go under or stop. No one can say that magicGadget wasn't a great product. The issue was it wasn't supported IMO. Whether illness or whatever. You can't say it's all because the products stink, and I know you're not comin' out and saying that. I just wanted to make it clear there are *other* reasons... If there were a 'licensing' mechanism, in a subproject Subscriber Portal project, then there's be a way to pay a certain agreed upon percentage to products to the original developer...at least for one version run through. That would be up to the Subscriber and the OOB vendor. Right now, us customers are just screwed. End of story.

How would this be difference if they guy who paints your house but has a heart attack doing it? You have left with a ½ painted house. This would not please me, but I choice to support an independent contractor instead of some large corporation. Or for that fact what would happen if you got a subscription business going but for some health reason you were unable to maintain it. Would it continue a life of its own? I highly doubt it. I think this is where the rub is; how do you expect better service from a company/individual just by changing how you charge somebody.

aaava wrote:

Obviously you're not onboard on this. That's your right. But I think it's the customers i'd like to hear from about this. And the core...though I wouldn't be surprised if they mention nothing because, well, it's open-source. Would they like to have us help come up w/a way so that the team isn't working two jobs? Of course. I'm trying to think of ideas to solve it. So instead of explaining why some specific idea won't work, I think it would be productive to come up w/more ideas that would work. I sure don't have all the answer, or even any. If I did, I'd be typing this from a Bahamas estate overlooking the ocean. Scratch that. I'd *hire* someone to be typing this, while *I* was overlooking the ocean. ;-)

I never said I was onboard or off board. I am just trying to have a friendly debate. And hell, I would also like to be overlooking my Bahamas estate or even a modest house in the suburbs without any financial worries.

Regards,

Phebous…