"How much for the Borland tool?" It's not cheap. The check the Borland site for current prices. They have an academic licencing agreemen too. "Ability to have all layers reflecting a class for each object." That is true, but as they use a DAO approach. I honestly think that you will only get to that what you fully want in the following manner: 1) Develop alot of custom code to separate layers. In the end that code will be hardly reusable. 2) Develop your own O/R Mapper but be prepared to spend a lot of time on it. Other's have been doing that for 2 years and have not yet reached a solution for every scenario (some are 25% there, other 50%, others 80% top IMHO). "They also have too much logic in the SP's." That is true. I don't use the books approach for my own projects. Neverthless is a good alternative for some - different companies, different cultures. No I have not met the "Crud on the Block" :) But I don't think I want to met with him :) CRUD is a concept that can be mapped in many ways. If that app/framerwork does what you need you just have to port it. Have fun. Nuno